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  1. #1
    Senior Member Serbi's Avatar
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    Rumored 5th ed, and how it effects us.

    For this thread, I just wanted to lay down a few rumors that seem to be strong and try and talk about how it effects the army choice, as well as how we can see it effecting the game as a whole.

    Let's get started.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Wounding, this is rumored to change so that if you have 10 wounds and 10 guys, you have to roll each special guy (power fist, special weapon, etc) separate from everyone else. In essence, this can be used two ways, against us and for us.

    Against us: If there is an army that inflicts a large number of wounds in a single shooting/assault (orks come to mind) your power fist is in a lot more danger than ever before. Even though we make the saves 2/3rds of the time, you now will have a 1/3 chance to lose your power fist, even if you only lose 2-3 guys in a single combat. This also means that we can't drop the Mark of <god> on joe smith anymore. And that putting it on anyone is really just a risk to lose the benefit. It makes me want to lean away from using the Mo(gods) into using nothing or MoCG. Which is sad to me.

    For us: This will give things like the noise marines and Khornites a lot more punch. Because now we have a lot more ability to get rid of their special weapons/power fists than before.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Power fist change, This is rumored to make it so a power fist on it's own can't let you have an extra attack (much like LC's) so that you have to take TWO of them to get the two weapons bonus to attack.

    Against us: This just sucks. Really. It basically says "Do I want this squad to only kill infantry, or to kill MC/Tanks?" It takes away the versitility that the power fist offered us.

    For us: None?

    -----------------------------------------------
    Unified damage chart, The rumor is that the old damage chart is being chucked out for a new one, where a glancing hit is just a -2 to the table, and other things can give you a +1 on the table (such as AP 1).

    Against us: This doesn't really seem to be bad. I don't see this nerfing really anything for Chaos. Although it did savagely nerf those poor necrons... :p

    For us: Land raiders are now... harder to kill. Because you can no longer get a destroyed result on the glancing table, the only thing that even is slightly scary to it are rail guns and dreddies in close combat. That's right, you need to roll a 6 to pen with your las cannon, then roll a 4+. Eat it.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Smoke change, instead of this making all hits into an auto-glance, it gives it effectly a cover save. I've heard of both a 4+ and a 5+ rumor, not sure which is true.

    Against us: some math-hammer guys say this is only a slight nerf at best to how it works. I'm mostly just afraid of them getting the explodes result against me on turn one.

    For us: some math-hammer guys say this is a slight boost to how it used to work. I'm mostly just afraid of them getting the explodes result against me on turn one.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Skimmer change, it is rumored that skimmers get a 4-5+ cover save vs shots rather than always glancing.

    Against us: We don't have skimmers!

    For us: We can finally kill their stupid holo-field skimmers! YAY

    -----------------------------------------------
    Troops only score, there is a rumor that only troops choices can be scoring units for missions.

    Against us: This seems to be rather harmful to the all infantry lists (or at least my style of them) because troop choices are largely ignored if I don't have a rhino. If it was changed to all infantry though, it would seem to be an agreeable change from most armies.

    for us: Take that you tank heavy guard armies!

    -----------------------------------------------
    Area terrain rules, it is rumored that area terrain will no longer block LoS if you're not in it. But rather just the normal 6 inch rule all around.

    I'd say this is the most neutral thing that's being changed. Being that now hiding tanks is harder for both sides, and getting shots is easier on both sides, it seems rather just neutral in my eyes. This seems like it will be a blow to CC centric armies more than anything, but I don't really have much of an opinion till I try it.

    -----------------------------------------------

    So, I'd like your input on this community, and I'd also like to just discuss how this will effect the game. This post is not intended to create arguments just to get the ideas flowing with how this'll change how you play, and how the game works as a whole.

    Nurgle, the freshmaker.



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    I think that the troops-only scoring thing is going to be a big benefit for us, as our troops choices are hard as nails and have a large maximum squad size. In 5th (due to the wound allocation nonsense) big squads are going to be a plus point.

    20 CSM's with MoN (or 20 Plague marines if you've got the points!) and a rhino (to act as a mobile shield ) are going to be hell to dislodge from whatever they're marching towards/standing on.

    The only worries I really have about 5th is it affecting small squads vs. shooting. Oh and the predator will now suck.

    And of course the powerfist issue. But I suppose that will lead to more sensible movement on our part (i.e. don't charge the carnifex because you know you can power-fist it to death as per current ed., shoot it from range etc.). That said, the MoK is certainly looking tempting (take my attack away will you GW, well I think I'll have it back again thankyouverymuch)!
    If I've replied, i've probably used Italics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serbi View Post
    Against us: This doesn't really seem to be bad. I don't see this nerfing really anything for Chaos. Although it did savagely nerf those poor necrons... :p

    Smoke change, instead of this making all hits into an auto-glance, it gives it effectly a cover save. I've heard of both a 4+ and a 5+ rumor, not sure which is true.

    Skimmer change, it is rumored that skimmers get a 4-5+ cover save vs shots rather than always glancing.

    Against us: We don't have skimmers!

    For us: We can finally kill their stupid holo-field skimmers! YAY

    Area terrain rules, it is rumored that area terrain will no longer block LoS if you're not in it. But rather just the normal 6 inch rule all around.

    I'd say this is the most neutral thing that's being changed. Being that now hiding tanks is harder for both sides, and getting shots is easier on both sides, it seems rather just neutral in my eyes. This seems like it will be a blow to CC centric armies more than anything, but I don't really have much of an opinion till I try it.
    I'm afraid that while they may have had their gause weapons downgraded, the necrons lith just got a whole lot harder to kill.

    I'm dissapointed with the change to smoke, can't ever seem to roll a 5+ cover save, but there are other changes supposedly that will make rhinos fairly safe to cruise around in

    Can you say fortune on my hollo-tank, there are surely going to be alot of eldar saying it after 5th comes out. Apparently the type of terrain you are obscured by also has an effect on your vehicles cover save, lets just hope they cant get their save better than 5+

    I think the biggest change is the LOS rules. As a fairly small elite army chaos tends to use terrain to get to the enemy, or just to cut down on the fire in a firefight. The idea of building terrain with a 4' tall wall around the edge and ladders to get over it has some merit for those who are happy with the current way area terrain works

    Defensive weapons being downgraded to str 4 is going to affect our dakka preds quite alot, one of the reasons to use them over a havoc squad was the ability to move so I think we may see a resurgence of the 4 HV bolter havoc squad, most likely with 10 members to counter mass fire from the enemy. The unit i'm really fearing under fith if the rumours regarding wound allocation are true, is the tyranid flyrant gunship.

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    Senior Member seismic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serbi View Post
    For this thread, I just wanted to lay down a few rumors that seem to be strong and try and talk about how it effects the army choice, as well as how we can see it effecting the game as a whole.

    Let's get started.
    Of course the key word here is rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Serbi View Post
    -----------------------------------------------
    Wounding, this is rumored to change so that if you have 10 wounds and 10 guys, you have to roll each special guy (power fist, special weapon, etc) separate from everyone else. In essence, this can be used two ways, against us and for us.

    Against us: If there is an army that inflicts a large number of wounds in a single shooting/assault (orks come to mind) your power fist is in a lot more danger than ever before. Even though we make the saves 2/3rds of the time, you now will have a 1/3 chance to lose your power fist, even if you only lose 2-3 guys in a single combat. This also means that we can't drop the Mark of <god> on joe smith anymore. And that putting it on anyone is really just a risk to lose the benefit. It makes me want to lean away from using the Mo(gods) into using nothing or MoCG. Which is sad to me.

    For us: This will give things like the noise marines and Khornites a lot more punch. Because now we have a lot more ability to get rid of their special weapons/power fists than before.
    The way i see it , if this rule is implemented our specialist units , more specifically the chosen, will be more of a liability. In the current format, you can add a few power weapons, claws and fists with some wounds in front to take the hit and make sure you can melee the cost of those upgrades. Considering the rumors it may be harder to justify paying the extra points to infiltrate with meltas and fists or whatever if they could get removed in the first round .

    In short, chosen will be too risky for my taste given the mandate they have. You'll need to add extra weapons similar to those they already have just to make sure they can do what you want them to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Serbi View Post
    -----------------------------------------------
    Unified damage chart, The rumor is that the old damage chart is being chucked out for a new one, where a glancing hit is just a -2 to the table, and other things can give you a +1 on the table (such as AP 1).

    Against us: This doesn't really seem to be bad. I don't see this nerfing really anything for Chaos. Although it did savagely nerf those poor necrons... :p

    For us: Land raiders are now... harder to kill. Because you can no longer get a destroyed result on the glancing table, the only thing that even is slightly scary to it are rail guns and dreddies in close combat. That's right, you need to roll a 6 to pen with your las cannon, then roll a 4+. Eat it.
    Yeah , thats pretty sweet. Though i wouldn't field a land raider even if i'd had a gun to my head.


    Quote Originally Posted by Serbi View Post
    -----------------------------------------------
    Skimmer change, it is rumored that skimmers get a 4-5+ cover save vs shots rather than always glancing.

    Against us: We don't have skimmers!

    For us: We can finally kill their stupid holo-field skimmers! YAY
    More good news :party2:

    Quote Originally Posted by Serbi View Post
    So, I'd like your input on this community, and I'd also like to just discuss how this will effect the game. This post is not intended to create arguments just to get the ideas flowing with how this'll change how you play, and how the game works as a whole.
    The only thing thats go me worried is the rumored "Vehicle move and shoot rules", this of course will affect the Predator and land raider more than anything, On the flip side there is also the rumor that tank will be able to "Ram" other tanks with Armor ratting + Distance moved for the purpose calculating the strength of the hit. Now this got me thinking (Never a good thing.) I may take 3 predator with no upgrade and just Kamikaze them on my opponents Vehicles. Given that they're inexpensive, have good frontal armor and smokers i think this could possibly work.

    In any case the look on my opponent's face will be worth it anyway!
    "The things that appear are a vision of the unseen"
    -Anaxagoras of Clazomenae

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    Member danis2005's Avatar
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    About the raming rule, i think it's realy nice.I can use my empty rihnos for smashing other tanks rather that just being mobile walls

  7. #6
    One Awesome Dude hotspike18's Avatar
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    I've seen a copy of the new rulebook, my local store had an advance copy they let us look through to get us excited and all that. Most of these aren't rumors, these are true.

    You've pretty much got everything right. Terrain is going to work a little differently than before, but it's a good change (I believe at least) that will help eliminate gray areas such as two units shooting or entering melee while in the same cover. I believe the smoke is a 5+, we focused more on infantry rules. (Otherwise the wounding, glancing and all that is correct methinks)

    But if you guys want me to look into something, let me know here, as I'm sure I'll be at the store sometime this week so I can go and double check for you.

    Blast Templates are going to be weird, could be better or worse. You'd have the mathhammer is out. But those who rely on the Blastmaster are going to want to run a couple practice games before taking things to tournament.

    With the marching and 'Go to Ground' rule, infantry armies have become a bit more viable luckily.

    If I remember correctly, vehicle deaths aren't going to be as severe for the cargo inside them - perhaps a pinning test or something after casualties - but it means we won't be as worried if our Rhinos get blown to bits.

    Also keep in mind that when you ram another vehicle it has a chance to beat you back - fast vehicles have a fair chance at breaking a heavy tank with a ram attack but will probably get destroyed in the process.
    Last edited by hotspike18; June 8th, 2008 at 23:29.
    "If you can wait til I get home, then I swear we can make this last."

  8. #7
    Member DeathInc's Avatar
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    I believe the smoke is a 5+, we focused more on infantry rules. (Otherwise the wounding, glancing and all that is correct methinks)
    I believe smoke is actually a 4+ save, same with obscured and skimmer rule. Also if anyone thinks that falcons and fire prisms will be easier to kill, think again. They will have a 4+ save, which means a farseer should be able to use fortune on their tanks. Then they get to re-roll the chance to completely ignore the hit.

    Its true they will be a bit easier just because its possible to penetrate them, but they will still be tough to kill.
    Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them

    -Obi-wan Kenobi

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