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  1. #1
    Senior Member northoceanbeach's Avatar
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    Starting tzeentch, first game was a wash.

    Hi, So I bought myself some chaos, looked through fluff for many armies, but I like Tzeentch best, I've wanted to do them for a long time anyways.

    I think The rest of them are just too nasty, the only other one I liked enough to play wa konrad cruze. Because of the necessary monster martyr aspect. DOn't get me wrong, I like the others, just not enough to make an army out of. They are more interresting for the general 40k fluff.

    So I played my first game yesterday, 1500 aghainst Space wolves. Cleanse. I had

    4 oblits, 2 8 man thousand, sorc, bolt. 12 marines IconoT, 2 plasma, ac. Sorceror, warptime, Bolt. Lord of Change and 10 horrors.

    I felt pretty good going in, but I just didn't have the firepower to whittle down the wolves to a point where I could do close combat. BY the turn where I got to rapid fire range, I didn't kill more than 12 maybe, and he had alot of power fists.

    I found bolt of change to have been a poor choice. The fact that I had to take a Psychic test and then roll to hit, then to wound or pen. was too much. And it is so costly both for the squad sorcerors and the Leader that I don't think would be effective. I think it would be better to get something that fits with the squad better. But really I don't think the thousands sons themsleves are worth it. For the 8 points overe a normal marine they get bolts and an invul, but they lose they're close combat weapons, pistol, squad choices and have to take a very expensive sorceror. In my limited opinion, they seem like they should be the same cost as a normal chaos marine. I think it's much better to take biggish squads of them with an icon.

    I know I was hurt by the 3 power fists in the blood claw squads, that and the storm spell he cast, which gave him an invulnerable and let him charge and go first, but other armies would havbe had more mobility, and at least this army let me have shooting.


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  3. #2
    Topic Creator Deluxe Mr_Wayne's Avatar
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    The Rubric Marines are worth it. You just have to use them right. They are the best of the elite infantry, thus hard to use. Back them up with some throw-away daemons. Once the shooting start they clean house.

    Did you use the Lord of Change and the Horrors as true daemons from the daemon codex? It almost sounds like it when you call them by their true names instead of the generic Greater and Lesser daemons.

    If I did a Thousand Sons army, I would take only Rubric Marines and Lesser Daemons, and have them backed up by some Las Preds. Keep the Sorcs cheap and let the tanks handle the tanks.

    The Rubric Marines are very good at whitling down massed marine infantry, the lesser daemons tie up assaulty enemies as speed bumps. The Preds take care of enemy armour first hand, as it can really hurt the expensive Sons with their Mlast or Ordnance markers and then taking care of enemy transports. Thousand Sons dont like close combat, but dont mind having the enemy close, as their bolters have Rapid Fire.

    So, destroy enemy tanks with your tanks, the let the enemies come to you in their transports. Whittle down the infantry. Throw the daemons at assault marines, back up and then shoot them with the rubrics once the marines are clear. A Slaaneshian sorcerer would be best with range-controlling Lash of Submission, but a super tough and killy Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Warptime can come in handy to deal with an unforseen threat.


    See the list in the entry below:
    Give the units specific tasks. Either a unit destroys swarms, infantry, tanks or characters. A marine squad with a sorc with bolt (bolt of change I suppose) isnt effective. If the sorc shoot the bolt at a tank, the marines fire is wasted and vice versa. Keep the sorc cheap enough to lose to an assault gone wrong, which mostly happens with Thousand Sons.
    The Obliterators are good, but here I think that the Predators could be better, as they have an armour value. The enemies ant-tank weapons will be targeting the Obliterators and Instant Kill them. The two Predators will be better at soaking up the fire and dishing it out equally.
    In these low point games the Daemon Prince will be terrifying. It can blast tanks from afar with Bolt, can rip monsters and tanks to pieces with warptime and tie up dangerous enemies in close combat. It's fast, durable and deadly, just awesome. The enemy MUST destroy him, and will leave your tanks alone. Just march this monster right up front in his face, 4+ Inv Save and Imunity from Instant Death is a good combo.
    Last edited by Mr_Wayne; June 9th, 2008 at 23:05.
    "The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"

  4. #3
    Topic Creator Deluxe Mr_Wayne's Avatar
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    This is what I would do:
    A very fluffy list (look at the numbers).

    Daemon Prince
    Mark of Tzeentch
    Wings
    Warptime
    Bolt of Change
    200 pts

    Thousand Sons x 8
    Aspiring Sorcerer x 1
    Doombolt
    Personal Icon
    (total of 9 models)
    259 pts

    Thousand Sons x 8
    Aspiring Sorcerer x 1
    Doombolt
    Personal Icon
    (total of 9 models)
    259 pts

    Thousand Sons x 8
    Aspiring Sorcerer x 1
    Doombolt
    Personal Icon
    (total of 9 models)
    259 pts

    Lesser Daemons x 6 (Horrors)
    78 pts

    Lesser Daemons x 6 (Horrors)
    78 pts

    Lesser Daemons x 6 (Horrors)
    78 pts

    Predator
    Lascannon Sponsons
    Combi-Melta
    140 pts

    Predator
    Lascannon Sponsons
    Combi-Melta
    140 pts

    Total army: 1491 pts (only 9 pts to spare)
    Last edited by Mr_Wayne; June 9th, 2008 at 22:56.
    "The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"

  5. #4
    Senior Member northoceanbeach's Avatar
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    You like predators better than obliterators? I weas thinking one shot could at LEAST shake them, rendering useless for a turn, but the oblits have to both be killed before you can't fire at least one lascannon. Plus their versatility.

  6. #5
    Topic Creator Deluxe Mr_Wayne's Avatar
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    In 5th, high armour vehicles (AV13 or 14) are better and can mess up things quite good. They also provide cover (which will be extremely important in 5th). Also, Obliterators can go down from massed small arms fire and are vulnerably to assaults (Imperial Guard and others will be able to deep strike and tie up elite shooty infantry). So yes, in this list, with the three heavy threat (DP and 2 preds) I think they will be better than the Obliterators.
    "The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"

  7. #6
    Spiky MindRaked's Avatar
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    I play a pure Thousand Sons Army (see below) and I believe I understand a bit how it works.

    First, it apears that you lack mobility. Even if your thousand sons have good range and good armour save, you still need to be able to redeploy or to move around. So Rhinos are a no brainer with thousand sons. In my army, I field 2. I left one squad on foot in order to show my opponent that if I shoot, he dies. Then, many players will go for the footslogger first, leaving your rhinos alone. Rhinos may also serve as cover while your thousand sons are shooting at their favorite target. This will probably improve your army on the long term.

    I use a predator, but I believe that obliterator are as a good choice, may be even better. I just plainly like predators, that's all.

    I also believe that there is no real benefit from giving a Chaos space marine squad an icon of Tzeentch. They will usualy benefit from a cover save for free, so why to pay for a lesser invulnerable save ?

    Generic Daemons are good, expecialy for your army which lack the ubergrit (bolt pistol, bolter and close combat weapon on the same model). They don't cost much and increase the number of attacks. But don't send them in a fight alone. Wait until your thousand sons get assaulted and then send the daemons in the fight.

    Finaly, even if they gat a good invulnerable save, try to limit the line of sight your opponent gets on your Thousand Sons. Their save is invulnerable, they are not.



    Here is my 1500 points army

    Tzeentch Sorcerer
    MoT
    Disk of Tzeentch
    Melta bomb
    Warptime + Wind of chaos


    5 Tzeentch terminators
    Chainfist (1)
    5 Aspiring Champion upgrade
    Icon of Tzeentch


    (9) 8 Thousand Sons + Sorcerer
    AS : Wind of chaos, Melta bomb
    Personal Icon
    Rhino


    (9) 8 Thousand Sons + Sorcerer
    AS : Doom Bolt, melta bomb
    Personal Icon
    Rhino


    (9) 8 Thousand Sons + Sorcerer
    AS : Bolt of change, Melta Bomb


    Predator (Autocannon turret, lascannon Sponsons)
    MindRaked
    CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7

  8. #7
    Topic Creator Deluxe Mr_Wayne's Avatar
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    ONe interresting thing is that unlike the other troops choices, Thousand Sons can take rhinos even if they're over 10 models. This is great for cover reasons as well as being able to redeploy the unit with the rhino when the unit has taken casualties down to 10 or less. A good choice if you want to take large squads for lots of boots, but dont want to spend valuable points on many Sorcerers.
    "The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"

  9. #8
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Wayne View Post
    ONe interresting thing is that unlike the other troops choices, Thousand Sons can take rhinos even if they're over 10 models.
    As I vaguely recall, the ruling on this was intended to be broadened to all rhinos, traitor and loyalist alike. Hence, any marine squad regardless of size could take a rhino. Can anyone else substantiate this?

    Preds -vs- oblits: A few quick pointers. If you're fielding rhinos, then predators become your first choice, as you need other vehicles that will downgrade the target priority of your rhinos. If you're not taking rhinos, then oblits become the pick. Chaos excels with either lots of vehicles or none. In other words, taking only a couple of tanks (either rhinos or preds) generally results in them getting popped early game. Also, keep in mind that predators typically have more staying power than oblits- oblits, which statistically stand a better chance at being instant-killed by a las-canon.
    Spambot kill tally. . .337

  10. #9
    Senior Member northoceanbeach's Avatar
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    I'm not opposed to taking any vehicles, but I'm trying to stay away from them. Maybe fifth will make me change my mind, but as far as I can tell, the more vehicles, the less bodies.

    Also. One of the main things that I need to understand is the sorceror. With having to take many and his cost, I've got to maximize his effectiveness. I didn't do that with bolt of change. I'm thinking warptime and doombolt, maybe, for rerolled shootin, and rerolled force weapon. I think that's the only way I'll ever get a kill with a force weapon.

  11. #10
    Topic Creator Deluxe Mr_Wayne's Avatar
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    I wouldnt take Warptime. You just don't want Rubric Marines in close combat, even if they got a killer Sorceror. Thats too many shooty points to tie up in assaults. If you really want to make a killer Sorceror, then get him Wind of Chaos to kill those swarms that the Sons stuggle with. Just 1 Predator is too weak. When I buy tanks and/or vehicles I always get me at least two + some rhinos.
    "The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"

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