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Ok its monday, that means a new tactica. The SM thread is still open though. This thread is for Chaos marines versus Tyranids. I will start with something i noticed the last night. Synapse protects instant death from double strentght/toughness wounds, it specificly states that and only that, nothing about force weapons, or other weapons that cause instant death regardless of toughness. (Blissgiver) This works really well against Carnifexes and Hive tyrants that just won't die. If you want to put a sorcerer in Close combat with one, make it a termie sorcerer and put him in a squad of terminators. Another goody is the Gift of Chaos psykik power. You would need to roll a 6 to beat the carnifex's Toughness test, but it would more or less instant kill the thing, since no wounds are techincally distrubted no saves of any kind are allowed.
Last edited by Hashulaman; July 14th, 2008 at 19:16.
Sonic Blasters are you're friends, as are the Defilers and Vindicators.If you're stuck against nidzilla, it's better to have more armour, so you can manouvre faster than those stompy 'ol fexes.Slaaneshi Daemon Princes can have some warriors or other Synapses for dinner, but don't underestimate the all myghty Hive Tyrant.That's all i can say.
I dont, I target synapse creatures first usually, youd be amazed how much fire you can bear on one hive tyrant and how much can actually kill it. but its better used for zoanthroaps, Hive tyrants tend to take tyrant guard. Those things are harder to kill that roaches, rather annoying. Units like that deserve the full force of a pfist terminator squad. Or pie plate them with defiler, new rules makes blast weapons more effective.
instantdeath is instantdeath no matter what causes it, now forceweapons also cause instantdeath making nids immune to it alongside the blissgiver.
In the nid codex it says they are immune to instant death from attacks that are double strenght to the targets toughness, They say NOTHING about weapons that deliver instant death regardless, why would they say instant death from wounds caused by double strength if they meant just that, if they meant all instant death theyd have just said immune to instant death. period. It's stuff like this that leads to alot of arguments. Why include one and not mention the other? That is incredibly stupid of the GW writers if they intended for all instant death to be ignored, but to just mention Instant death from double strength to toughness wounds, and not weapons that cause instant death regardless of enemy units toughness.
Further more, a Chaos sorcerer is nowhere near double S of say a Carnifex or Hive tyrant's toughness, technically, the immunity doesnt cover them then since the instant death came from something that had a weaker strength to toughness
Last edited by Hashulaman; July 14th, 2008 at 21:35.
There was a big uproar from the Nid community, numerous references to white dwarfs were made where a tyranid warrior took only a single wound from a las cannon, etc... and a week later, GW reversed their ruling. But they didn't stop there, they went overboard. They then stated that anything in synapse range is immune to instant death from any source, regardless of strength, etc. It even specifically referenced the Wraith Cannon as one such example.
Now back in 4th, force weapons didn't cause instant-death, so they still worked. The Blissgiver did specifically cause that effect, so only caused 1 wound a hit.
With 5th, force weapons now cause instant death, too. I haven't read the new 5th Ed. Tyranid FAQ to see whether they copied over the ruling about Synapse and Instant death, though. It'd be something worth checking out.
Anyway, history lesson over! :p
That's actually very interresting. Why would the writers of the 'Nid codex mean all Instant Death if the specifically wrote "Instant Death caused by strength double of it's toghness" or something similar. This is RAW at it's purest.
I think of it this way:
If a synapse creature like a Hive Tyrant gets smacked down by a weapon that doubles it's toughness, the Hive Mind tells it that the wound isn't so dangerous after all, and the Tyrant believes it and carries on fighting.
But a Force Weapon totally fries the Tyrants brain, so there isn't anything left to listen to the Hive Mind. It's the same with Blissgiver. That weapons overloads the targets nervous system, so it is incapable of anything resembling thought or motion, let alone listening to the Hive Mind.
Where with physical damage, the creature can just shrug it off, but with other weapons that doesnt deliver pure physical damage it has no protection.
"The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"
GW needs to address this ASAP. If we got into an argument over it by now, imagine how many arguments it will cause. At least Gift of chaos isnt affected since it does not cause any wounds whatsoever. It just turns the creature (MC or otherwise) into a gelatonous pile of goo.
OK, for the purpose of this thread please bear in mind the following:
This thread is for the purpose of detailing tactics against Tyranids.
It is clear that the synapse VS kill instantly instant death weaponry thing is a grey area.
This thread is not to be turned into an endless argument about that issue.
Please keep focused.
Tyranids are a great army. They are balanced, dangerous, have a fair codex and are extremely fun to battle against. They represent a worthy challenge to the might of Chaos.
What to expect:
You will need to read the Tyranid Codex and FAQ in full to understand exactly. However, in short:
Expect all Nids to autopass leadership tests.
Expect most Nids outside of synapse to be Fearless and have leadership 10.
Expect all Nids to be immune to instant death.
Synapse is like a bubble of control used by the Hive Mind to control its thralls.
It has a limited range, and the following can be synapse creatures:
Always look for a weak point in the chain of synaptic command. If you can exploit one, then by all means lascannon/autocannon the synapse provider away and attempt to disrupt the Tyranid command.
I would personally never rely on ANY weapons that use instant death, force weapons or have any other silly wording. It's not worth even potentially being wrong and getting into an argument when you can just take melta guns and powerfists and be done with it.
Tyranid's main way of getting rid of armour (which we buy at a premium) is rending. Genestealers, Warriors, Raveners, Lictors... all these units rend. Even though rending has been 'nerfed' in 5th Ed, this will offer little consolation to you as nid players will start using a biomorph which will increase the number of hits and thus rending wounds.
Just be aware of the rending rules and how you can stop this. IoT is a nice addition, and 1K sons would make a wonderful road block against rending nids, although that is a horrible waste of their costly inferno bolts.
Although they fit under the rending category, the mighty Genestealer really deserves an entry of it's own.
Many people will tell you with horror filled desperation, 'Go for the Genestealers first!' They are without doubt one of the top 3 CC units in 40K. For their cost and overall performance, they will easily defeat just about anything we can throw at them - even Khornate Bezerkers.
Remember their high toughness too. Even though they may not always have armour saves against bolters, their tough constitution alone means they will shrug off half of your bolter shots.
Heavy Bolters and Autocannons are a godsend against Genestealers.
Plasma cannons can do well too. The Lash is particularly useful as it may give you some much needed distance.
The Karmoon Pattern terminator squad is also brilliant against Nids. This is one of the reasons I specify the Heavy Flamer. Most genestealer broods will cost over 150 points, and rely on numbers of attacks to do damage.
Dakka Fex/Devil Fex:
This beast costs about 115 points, so is cheap. And it puts out 6 x S6 shots... with both rerolls to hit AND rerolls to wound.
This is completely legal.
This guy is scary and poses a grave thread to even plague marines and bikers. The high strength of his attacks makes a mockery of our Toughness.
His effective operational range is 24"
A carnifex boasts impresive toughness, Rabbit, Dan Jones and myself prescribe power fists for exactly this reason.
With a powerfist, you'll make short work of this beast. With a power spoon or lightning claws... well... good luck hahahaha. You'll need it.
A raptor squad with Power Fist and twin melta weapons are ideal for carnifex hunting. The meltas really hurt carnifexes, and you can then assault into close combat. You'll likely kill it by the end of the nid player's combat phase - which is ideal.
The Karmoon Pattern terminator squad is also very good at assassinating TMCs. Although the S vs T ratio isn't ideal, with that much rapid fire plasma, you can really put the hurt on it.
Just incase you thought Tyranids were a CC based force, this should really change your mind.
This amazing Hive Tyrant puts out no less than 12 shots at S5.
These have reroll to hit (which is at the same accuracy as a Chaos Marine), and also reroll to wound. They are a synapse creature too.
Additionally, they have giant wings, which makes the operational range of this big git about 30".
If you're REALLY unlucky, he'll also have terminator armour on too.
Keep your cool. This this is destructive but by no means invulnerable. The fact is, he is a monster, so lascannons, krak missiles and melta guns will all do well to hurt him.
Like the Dakke Fex, he's also very weak to close combat - provided you've equipped your squads properly and don't have some weird obsession with power spoons.
Mind you, even if you do like power spoons, you're probabyl STILL best off assaulting him, if anything just to stop him from shooting.
NOTE: A good nid player will see a counter assault a mile off. Look out for Raveners or Genestealers in the wings lurking around and keeping pace with a Flyrant. They will counter attack your assault, and probably defeat your efforts.
In short, make sure it's safe to engage the Tyrant and try and get him on his own.
Another very common unit. For little under 150 points this guy puts out a S8 pie plate and 2 x S10 shots. Effective operational range is something like 36-50"
Mainly a tank hunter, and will certainly give your lesser vehicles a great pounding. Although none of its weapons can break your CSM's power armour, at that massive strength, the penalty for failing a save is pretty grave.
Entire squad of plague marines can be neutralised compeltely if you roll badly. There's no FNP against such massive strength.
Once again - Close Combat is the best way of dealing with these guys. That or superior fire power in the form of obliterators or something like that.
The main thing is just to be prepared and know what they're likely to target with those big guns.
GAUNTS (all forms):
Call me blase, but, we are one of the armies where gaunts represent little threat. With their inferior/equal WS pathetic T and S, they will literally bounce of your troops.
I actually get my aspiring champions to use their bolt pistols when assaulted in cover against these guys. Simply because they have no armour to speak of.
NOTE: Super Gaunts (hormagaunts with various upgrades) still can represent a bit of a threat even to CSM. They are lightning quick, so may engage units you need to shoot. They can potentially tie up your units until Genestealers arrive.
This is very bad for you.
A skilled Nid player will also assault you with more than one unit at a time. Considering their base speed, Hormagaunts and Raveners combo very well together. This is a dangerous combination for us.
Solution: Shoot the buggers, chop the buggers - but keep your cool. I'd still prioritise Genestelers and Raveners.
Zoanthropes represent just how shooty the Nids army actually is. It's the third instance in the Nid codex which give them a S10 shooting attack. Even the Tau only have 1 (or maybe 2).
Zoanthropes are dangerous units which come with terminator armour as standard (although a slightly reduced ward save).
Generally they will be synapse creatures, and have Warp Blast. Warp Blast is very good at cutting down marines and destroying vehicles.
While fairly slow, they are resilient and perform an important job for Nids. It's hard to victimise them as they're normally surrounded by things which might represent a greater threat.
Additionally, they are a squad unto themselves which is annoying, as you have to devote a lot of fire power to something which is only worth 60 points or so.
A great unit for the nids, and a significant threat for us. They are by no means indestructable boasting only marine toughness, however, make sure there are no better targets to strike at first.
That's all for the moment I think...