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  1. #1
    Nox Archnomad's Avatar
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    The old chaos codex.

    Im sure all you older chaos players occasionaly reminisce about days long gone. Our 200 point lords of mass destruction. Chosen actually being special. Slaaneshi armies having real Sonic Weapons everywhere. Yeah, a kind of bitter euch has sunk in with the new codex. We all put up with it. But that hearty cheer that was there with the old one. All the flavour. It's gone.

    So, what I want to know, would your gaming group let you use the old codex if you asked them? Im seriously considering this. I hate the new book. Thorpe and Cavatore should rot for what they did to chaos. I mean yeah we put up with it. But realistically why should we use something we're discontent with?

    So yeah, it's not like GW are going to come knocking at our door. And if anyone goes on a cheese rant all im going to say is the new book is just as competative as the old one. Barring the IW list of cheeseycheese.

    So yeah, what do we think? Would your group let you use the old book? I think mine might as long as I didn't do a cheese list.

    omgitsduane:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archnomad
    Well I picked up my first model when I was 7.

    I misunderstood that... ALOT

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Castellan Green's Avatar
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    Personally, I would let you. As it was a balanced codex, a bit overly cheesy at times but that depended on the player I suppose.

    On taking all the flavour out of them. This is why I am happy I do Templar. They are the only marine chapter left with any soul left in them. They took it right out of DA's and of BA's. And am glad they never actually managed to get round to SW's
    A lot of armies are loosing a bit of flavour man. And with it a bit of cheese, I mean think how nasty Deathwing would be in 5th Ed.

    We'll talk about it on Saturday at the club I reckon. However teh general LO consensus is still something I wanna know an opinion on. What say you all??
    Last edited by Castellan Green; July 17th, 2008 at 00:46.
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  4. #3
    Nox Archnomad's Avatar
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    Although, in saying this. FW are currently doing a book on Nurgle and Khorne (my two current armies, fortunately enough) so there may still be hope...
    omgitsduane:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archnomad
    Well I picked up my first model when I was 7.

    I misunderstood that... ALOT

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #4
    Returning Lawman! Riptor's Avatar
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    Unless you went for something REALLY unfair, such as 9 obliterators, a basilisk and 3 defilers, or the siren lord summoning daemonettes. I cannot see why I personally would not let you.

    However I must ask, what is it that you dislike about the new book? You were very vague in your post, 'Saying 'they took away our flavour', and yet not explaining howso? The way I see it, Chaos has as much variation now as it ever did in third edition, the only difference now is that you see similar HQs, but different lists (As opposed to before, when it was all 5 man Las/Plas Squads or 10 man infiltrate units, and a unique HQ unit).
    Rork: In the dark future of the 41st millennium there is only friendship.
    Fenrir: and magic.
    Kaiser-: My Little Chaos Marine, Friendship is Heresy?

  6. #5
    Member Lode's Avatar
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    I wouldn't let you either... Even less so since 5th edition is now out. The new Chaos Codex has been out long enough for you to have been able to tweak a few lists and after some adjustments, you're pretty much always able to play in a very similar way than before. Also, it's a given that the new codex has been made with 5th rules in mind. Most of the "flavor" is in the way you play them anyway, the Codex is only giving you a new template for it. Sure you may loose some legion-specific rules, but as far as I know this codex had more the normal Chaos Space Marines in mind than legion-specific Marines. Who knows, maybe a Codex: Legion is in the works? But until then...

    But you know, I wouldn't accept playing against 3rd edition Tyranids or stuff like that either... old codexes are good for fluff reference, maybe, but not to play. I guess mainly because of some balance issues.

  7. #6
    Nox Archnomad's Avatar
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    Well as to the character that was lost. The vast majority of it was lost in our armoury and our Legions. Ask any of the oldschool well known CSM players (DanJones, Rabbit, Karmoon all spring to mind, so they can be my examples) about the Old Legions. Dan was old Iron Warriors. Theyre now gone, but to be fair they were hideously cheesy in the right hands. Rabbit's Death Guard are surviving, but a pure Death Guard army is no longer plausible. Try and explain why your basic troopers have FnP and your "best of the best" terminators dont? Or try and run a Death Guard army without rhinos, its way too slow. Then there's Karmoon's Alpha Legion. Which has lost the ability to take cultists and infiltrate.

    Also, my Night Lords. Haha, theyre tattered remains now. Sitting gathering dust in one of my drawers. Why? You ask. Because A) I can no longer run 4 Fast Attacks. I didn't mind that. But the fact that in 5th edition my Fast Attacks arent viable, and the loss of infiltrate and stealth adept hurt me big. My army used to be a precision scalpel. Now it's a basic CSM army with self imposed restrictions. Woo.

    Daemonic Gifts. Dont Get Me Started.

    Enough clarification or shall I continue?
    omgitsduane:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archnomad
    Well I picked up my first model when I was 7.

    I misunderstood that... ALOT

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #7
    Member Cyresh's Avatar
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    well i can understand your displeasure at the losses...i mean hell i miss khornate chainaxes and stuff like that...but my khornate armie was sold a long time ago...my word bearers under the new codex havent changed that much....well exept for the deamons but i rarely used them anyways...ok i now have to run a mage lord with mot instead of a dark apostle but hey thats a bit better XD...the main thing i wanna say is that i play chaos for a lot of years now but i dont find the new codex so repulsive as many ppl...basically we can tailor the armies the way we want..ofc no more legion specific weapons and special rules...no more deamons...no more lords that cost 20o and are killing machines...ya also complain about fluff but there is quite a lot about the legions in it...ok there is a lot about renegades but then there was never much about them before...as fer legions the horus heresy series gives you more fluff than a codex ever would...blargh ime rambling XD
    what i wanted to say is the new codex puts more emphasis on you...it doesent impose anything on you so you have freedom of choice in composing your army....its really up to you..i find that they took away a bit to much true but it annoyed me that in order to field a legion specific army you had to go by composing in a imposed way
    ok enough of my babbling for a long while
    The strong will always enslave the weak. Where the strong make their own fate, the weak bow their heads and succumb. There are few who are strong and many are their enemies, and the greatest of those enemies is the false Emperor of Mankind

  9. #8
    Returning Lawman! Riptor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Well as to the character that was lost. The vast majority of it was lost in our armoury and our Legions. Ask any of the oldschool well known CSM players (DanJones, Rabbit, Karmoon all spring to mind, so they can be my examples)
    about the Old Legions.
    Aye, I myself was around for thsoe days too, so I know all about the old chaos codex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Dan was old Iron Warriors. Theyre now gone, but to be fair they were hideously cheesy in the right hands.
    They are gone, already? Odd, as I played a game against Dan and his Iron Warriors only about 3-4 days ago. To be honest, his army still works wonders, and still looks amazing on the battlefield, only difference really is that there is no more Basilisk, and the lack of 4 heavy support choices (Which was an... odd choice on GWs part anyway.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Rabbit's Death Guard are surviving, but a pure Death Guard army is no longer plausible. Try and explain why your basic troopers have FnP and your "best of the best" terminators dont?
    Alright, you have got me there. The lack of cult terminators is kind of annoying, But then, 2+/5+ with T5 anyway (After the Icon) is nothing to scoff at.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Or try and run a Death Guard army without rhinos, its way too slow.
    You don't HAVE to go towards the enemy you know. You can use them to hold objectives nearer you, and use plasma rifles to attack them as they advance. And besides, what could they do that was so much better in third? I beleive they had the option to take some rhinos, 2 squads as fast attack with them. Well take 2 squads now, the rhinos can 'taxi' now. And if you want more, but no rhinos, chosen with the icon.

    Oh, and with the run rule, they arent AS slow anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Then there's Karmoon's Alpha Legion. Which has lost the ability to take cultists and infiltrate.
    I beleive I quote Karmoon himself when I say:
    'the gaming rules for Alpha Legion have never been truly reflected in the tabletop game. It would be almost impossible to reflect Alpha Legion fairly too.

    Alpha Legion's combat doctrine is not about setting up 30 metres closer to the enemy. Alpha Legion's combat doctrine is much deeper than that, with operations beginning sometimes centuries before the final execution.'

    He also, I seem to remember, is an avid supporter of using creativity and making lesser daemons act as cultists, saying that they are infiltrating, and only have the courage to pop out when the marines are near.



    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Also, my Night Lords. Haha, theyre tattered remains now. Sitting gathering dust in one of my drawers. Why? You ask. Because A) I can no longer run 4 Fast Attacks. I didn't mind that. But the fact that in 5th edition my Fast Attacks arent viable, and the loss of infiltrate and stealth adept hurt me big. My army used to be a precision scalpel. Now it's a basic CSM army with self imposed restrictions. Woo.
    4 Fast attacks, see my post on Iron Warriors heavy support above.
    5th edition, your Fast attacks are no longer viable? Well using the 3rd edition book is not going to fix that. Raptors are MUCH better now (They lost H&R, but are a fair price). Bikers are the same as ever.
    Stealth adept, You have a 3+ armour save to hide behind, and in 5th edition cover has become much better (Both in when you recieve it, and how much protection it gives), and so this cannot be a HUGE deal. Play the army because you like their background and models, not because you get +1 to your cover save.
    Infact, being a player who is about to start Night Lords, I am happy. Cause now when people see them they will know I like their background, and not just their rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Daemonic Gifts. Dont Get Me Started.
    Alright then, I won't. Less work for the both of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archnomad View Post
    Enough clarification or shall I continue?
    Entirely up to you, I came to terms with the fact that we have a new codex a year ago, I say adapt and accept.

    Thanks for your time.
    ~Matt~
    Last edited by Riptor; July 17th, 2008 at 03:07.
    Rork: In the dark future of the 41st millennium there is only friendship.
    Fenrir: and magic.
    Kaiser-: My Little Chaos Marine, Friendship is Heresy?

  10. #9
    Senior Member Moschaboy's Avatar
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    and down the drain it goes...

    i mean it looks like this develops into another aw-maan-i-hate/love-the-new-chaos-dex moan and i can't hear it anmore. so please just stay on topic and answer the question instead of listing your list of why the new chaos dex is good/bad.

    soooo, back on topic. i'd let you play with the old chaos dex if you intended, but you shouldn't take that for granted. i think many people would let you do this especially if you have a very special army like emperors children with all sonic weapons which cant be fielded with the new dex. just make sure you ask before the game and let your opponent know what everything does exactly.



  11. #10
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    With 5th Ed now out, I actually believe that the old codex may be too powerful.

    I think the old codex needs to be tweaked slightly if you're going to play with it in 5th Ed. There are some gifts which shouldn't be stacked anymore - for the price.

    Consider what an Imperial Marine will very soon pay for a powerfist.
    In the old codex, you can get a power fist with almost double the attacks for the same price.

    There has to be some element of balance to the game.

    I've campaigned for the old codex a fair bit - but that's not because I like to dominate with senseless power (aka the Eldar codex). It's because I like fair game and a good challenge. Little is more satisfying than besting an opponent when you know the stakes are equal - because then you know that it's down to skill and not the content of your army/codex.

    My advice is to use trial and error to determine which rules work and which ones are far too harrowing/dominating for 5th Ed.

    I'm still working on theorising the mix between the Daemon codex and the Chaos codex myself.
    (For example Epidimus and Plague Marines should NEVER EVER be mixed).

    Legion rules would be nice, of this there is no doubt. But as Riptor says, the game does go on.

    Just bear in mind that this is definitely NOT our last codex. There will be others. There always are.
    LO Rules

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