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I was thinking the other day, I think Daemons is probably the hardest army to pick up in 40k. DE players may claim that their army is harder, but that's due the fact their codex is too old. Same for WH, DH, etc.
I think that Daemons are legitimately the hardest army to start up and learn in 40k, your thoughts?
Wait.. why are you discounting DH, WH and DE as being the hardest to play, just because they have an old Codex?
I would argue that DE are definately the hardest army to play, because they have such an old and ill-balanced Codex. New players lose about 90% of the time, vet players win about 90% of the time.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
I'm saying Daemons, upon release, is probably the hardest army to play out right now. DE were tricky, but I don't think they were as difficult in 1999 as Daemons are now in 2008.
Oh, I see. So your question is, which Codex was the hardest to play, when each individual Codex was released.
Well, in that context, I've no idea, sorry.
PS. DE was released 1998. 2nd edition of DE Codex was released 2003, though.
SO, going by that, I'd still say it was Dark Eldar, because their Codex was so shoddy it had to be re-done within a few years just to make it playable, or pure DH, as they are almsot always at a disadvantage, except against Daemons.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
Demons are not hard to play. Certain demons combinations are ridiculously overpowered and easy to figure out.
For the average beginner, I think you're going to find the toughest challenges with things like Guard codex, both b/c many guard builds are easy to eradicate, and b/c the codex is one of the more complicated in terms of organization (with all the attachments and requirements and *'s about what's required to get this and that).
Witch hunters and demon hunters and dark eldar do have old, out of date codices, and the problem mainly is that they don't have a lot of variety of "strong" lists. You throw a bunch of penitent engines and inquisitors down in a witchhunters list, you're in trouble before you deploy.
Demons, like any list, do have weak builds, but they generally are not weak, and are generally reliable. Many of their options (not all) aren't super pricey, their entire army comes with invul saves, meaning no matter where you wind up if you mis-deep strike or make silly errors, you've still got a chance to save against incoming damage. Certain combinations are downright ridiculous, like Fateweaver-centric Tzeentch lists with re-rolls to everything.
It's basically Necron syndrome with back-up, in that certain builds give you a lot of durability and resistance to error, but you've got more variety than the Necrons have.
Give any good GAMER the demons codex and the 40k rulebook, and he'll put out a competitive list in a few tries. That's not necessarily the case with some of the other codices.
Personally, I'd like to hear WHY, as opposed to "dey lewz lawtz" or just simple statements, but it isn't my thread
Last edited by MVBrandt; August 15th, 2008 at 15:31.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
Ummm... I think that Kroot Mercs take the prize here. Even Veteran Kroot Merc players lose a lot still.
Fantasy: Daemons (Angels), 40k: Black Templars
Pure assault, or pure shooty armies are easy to pick up and play. It is the codices that require you to use multiple specialised units at precise timing that are most difficult IMHO. With Daemons, since we are using them as an example, I had a veteran player take his wife (casual player) to a tournament with his new Slaneesh army arguing that you basically DS your guys and run at the enemy, what could be simpler?
Dark Eldar still aren't harder IMHO. You have the same fragility issues as Daemons minus the perils of an entirely DSing army.
IG are one of the most straightforward armies in 40k, with a relatively mild learning curve. The hardest part of the codex is understand the the platoons, I think that says enough about it.
Kroot Mercs are an allied army. They're not designed to be a stand alone. You can play IG as an infantry assault army and it'll be damn hard. The same goes for Kroot Mercs.
A lot of the examples here mostly reference poorly written or out of date books. I remain unconvinced. Like Smok said, it is difficult to play armies where you have highly specialized units. THESE ARE DAEMONS!!!!!!!! There is an entire tactica I wrote, linked to my sig, talking about this and how to overcome it for making mono-god lists. They have a very steep learning curve and require a great deal of foresight on the table.
Last edited by Dr. Paris; August 15th, 2008 at 20:43.
DE's age actually works for it in some ways. For example, it's a codex that was made long before the "one heavy weapon per squad" rule, so it's easy to slap down ten DE warriors with two dark lances, and have them play in cover all game.
And the DE still have the 30+ inch assault wyches, and the archon with his bodyguard.
Granted, their codex is old and out of date, but it's been around so much that everyone knows everything about it, so finding the 'perfect' list isn't very difficult.
Pure DH and WH armies are a bit trickier. The DH's GKs, while amazing individual units, are kinda crappy as a whole because they're expensive, required to be in combat to do damage, and are about as tough as standard marines without the (up and coming, especially) perks. So someone really has to get lucky (or good) with them to really win, especially against horde armies that can make GKs fail saves by virtue of close-range fire.
WH's also have problems. They're a close-range oriented army (flamers and meltas), but they almost universally suck in close combat. The faith powers are very hit-or-miss, the SoB have lost quite a few abilities concerning their psyker protections, and some could argue that the SoB HQ (Heroine) is a bit...useless (sorta like the Eldar autarch, but worse).
Daemons have the aforementioned deepstrike problems, always giving their opponents at least one round of shooting, having crappy (though invulnerable) saves for the most part, and so on.
Still, almost every army has its problems, and unless your codex has "marine" on it, you won't be able to do everything and do it well.
After all, is it harder to play, say, Dark Eldar, or gunlining Tau/IG? The difficulty comes mostly from playstyles instead of codex woes, in most cases. Some of the older codices like Necrons are an exception.
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