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While ==My== poor marines languish under "Dark Angel Codex blues" and the Orks await painting, I'm putting some extra focus on Daemons. ==My== overall plan for the army is to have a shared force between ==Me== and ==My== brother as we both adore the army. How to approach this always remained a problem. Initially we opted for a mix of Khorne and Tzeentch, our favorite gods, but that left half the army out and that didn't seem right.
So, we've revisited what we liked best about the army and fluff and decided on building two seperate armies with the intention of being completely standalone with mixing opportunities down the road.
He, being a bit overt in motivation and execution, went for a Khorne and Nurgle tag team, leaving ==Me== with the Prince of Pleasure and Architect of Fate. I've always preferred Tzeentch and Slaanesh for their subtleties and downright terrifying nature so I guess I'm sticking with them for the time being.
Off the bat, Tzeentch and Slaanesh units don't look all that durable or killy, rather being speedy, tricksy, and shooty. As of now I am considering a HoT on a chariot, 2 big units of Daemonettes, a couple small units of Horrors, Fiends, Flamers, Seekers, and Screamers. A lot of fast units to get stuck in how and when they want to. Later on I plan to add another chariot Herald and a GD of some sort (leaning towards KoS, but LoC is also appealing), more Troops, and a pair of Grinders for some added durability.
How would a Slaanesh/Tzeentch army work? Could it work? Which units would you include to make a successful army?
I've been testing a 2000 point Slaanesh/Tzeentch list lately and so far its done well. Here's my setup:
20 Horrors with standard, changeling and HoT
1 Soul Grinder
20 Horrors with Standard and HoT
1 Soul Grinder
It has done well vs Guard, Orks and Marines so far. Haven't played it against anything else. I'm looking forward to testing it against Eldar in particular since Warlocks and Flying Circus style lists are popular in my area.
I went light on the upgrades for now because I like to have more models on the table. I didn't even add anything to the HoT, I've even considered cutting one of them since I really just use them because I have to. I do use Phlegm on my Grinders though.
Notice I didn't use any MCs. I'm completely sold on the "MCs are useless" theory in WH40K. I bet that statement will cause a riot on the daemon forum but every time I see a MC in a competitive game, it gets mowed down in 1 or 2 turns. Instead I've turned to vehicles since they can't be wrecked by a single glancing hit anymore in most cases. Soul Grinders are even cheaper than any of the greater daemons so if it does go down its not as much of a loss.
I'm going to tinker around with this list and continue testing it with some of the upgrades such as adding Gaze to my Daemonettes and maybe some upgrades to an HoT so I can drop the other one. I was thinking of giving it the Bolt of Tzeentch, Mastery of Sorcery and We Are Legion so it can shoot at vehicles while the rest of the squad fires at troops.
The small groups of Flamers are there just to drop, breathe and then die. I've wiped out entire squads doing that and they are by far the best use of Breath of Chaos I've found on the list. It is because of this tactic that I've even considered using icons on my Daemonettes so they can summon the flamers. That way I won't have to risk getting my horrors too close to the front and in assault range.
Anyhow, speedy assault and lots of shooting is the way to do Slaanesh and Tzeentch in my opinion. I've even come up with a funny name for this list (I always name my lists).
STDs = Slaanesh/Tzeentch Daemons
Kinda fits with the presence of so many Daemonettes don't ya think?
Great, that's exactly what I'm looking for. You went the no MC route to get more bodies on the table, sounds good. I don't know if I could ever part with ==My== GD, but since Slaanesh/Tzeentch DPs aren't anything to write home about I may give up on MCs for Grinders too.
How have the big Horror and Daemonette units fared? I've never fielded units that big for fear of bad scattering.
Here comes the trashing No, I just want to say that MC (specially the greater daemons) can be very good. I play with a nurgle daemon and he always pays for his money back. And the Tzenntch one is a very good one too. So I just want to say that don´t rule out them, they can indeed be good. But remember, they cost a lot. Thats one good thing with nurgle, he is cheap.
I have been struggling with the GD being killed too quickly issue lately as well. Fateweaver is awesome, though when he does just leave, it's kinda painful.
I think, look what I can get for this GDs price. This one big guy or 15-20 of those little guys. The little guys have man y more wounds, even though they are weaker. They have a chance to last more turns. And they can score.
I can see a good purpose for DPs (most at least-> Not sure if Slannesh or Khorne are worth it), but the GDs do seem a bit overcosted IMHO. Taking multiple heralds is nearly always better. For DPs, though... I can see a gaze/BoC tzeentch DP doing well (I still have yet to playtest it though), especially with icons. DPs are definately better than SGs in an Epi list. The main advantage of DPs is that even if the enemy does mow them down in one or two turns, they attract a lot of firepower. The problem, however, is that they can die to bolter fire while an SG can't, but an SG has a chance of being one-shotted by a lascannon. I'm not saying either choice is better than the other (I haven't played with my daemons enough to make that decision), but I don't think either choice should be totally discounted yet.
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
Current Rep: 1337
Nidzilla hasn't been viable since 5th edition came out... hence its absence in competitive play in my area lately. But that's not the topic at hand...
The big blocks have done well for me but I'm the kind of guy who will drop my units into cover despite the dangerous terrain checks. I might lose a couple of models but the other 13-18 have been enough.
As far as big blocks go, you can run them either way. They both have their pros and cons. Small blocks are less likely to cause a mishap, although its not really that much of a difference. Running more small blocks also forces your opponent to shoot at fewer troops at a time thus reducing the effect of a round of extremely lucky dice rolls on his part. Larger blocks tend to do better in CC, especially with units like Daemonettes who have a high initiative. Larger blocks of units like Horrors also force you to focus your fire. I think its really about preference and playstyle. I could see breaking up the Horrors but I highly recommend running at least 15 Daemonettes to chop away at your opponent in CC before they can strike back.
I agree that using DPs and the GUO in an Epidemius list is the way to go but that's the exception. In most daemon armies they're just simply not needed and usually end up getting shot down before they can do much by any player that knows what they're doing.
Last edited by cobly; November 4th, 2008 at 18:15. Reason: Forgot what all I needed to respond to. It would be nice if I could see previous messages while responding.
Oh btw, personally I do own all of the GDs and had a friend (who doesn't suck at modeling like I do) make Fateweaver for me. Mainly I play them in FB but when we play team games for fun or Apocalypse, I throw as many of them onto the table as I can! It seems everybody does that with their armies too... that's when all the Abbaddons, Marneaus Calgars, Ghazkulls, Emperor's Fist Leman Russ Tank Squadrons, Eldrads and... well... more bugs hit the table!
Nidzilla is still very viable in competitive play and is one of the best armies to run in 5th edition. Having 6 dakkafexs and 2 tyrants with guards will leave you almost 800 points to fill up with fodder. The difference between a GD and DP is about 150 points, I can agree greater demons are not all that useful but DPs are way better then a Soulgrinder. The same shots you will be getting at your DP that will cause easy wounds will be able to 1 shot your soul grinder. The soulgrinder has a worse bs and is nowhere near as custimizable for the point for point cost of a DP. Your soulgrinder can be taken down and at min not be able to shoot from str 7 weapons and str 8 and above can be destroyed. It has a very large footprint.
In regards to each gods demonprince I find that almost all of them but Khorne can be used for different purposes.
Tzeentch- good inv. save lots of shooting
Slaanesh- highest bs pavane+ boc high Init Hit and run
Nurgle- High toughness, very survivable unit with NT and BoC CoF can kill things
Here's what I've come up with for 1000 points
2x Herald of Slaanesh-chariot, sopoforic musk, enrapturing gaze, unholy might
2x 10 Daemonettes, enrapturing gaze, musician
2x 5 Horrors, bolt, 1 Changeling
Soul Grinder w/ phlegm
The Grinder, Daemonettes, and chariots drop first to soften up the enemy and prepare some charges otherwise the small units deploy and hide in preparation for the real deal.
I think I'll have to put a lot of emphasis on speedy units, so lots of Fiends/chariots/Seekers will be ==My== primary assault units. Horrors and Flamers will thin the enemy out. For survivability, I've got DP, Grinders, and GDs. The Keeper is not all that resilient, so I may stick with a LoC. For tanks I have bolts, Screamers, and Fiends. DPs don't stack up to Soul Grinders in this case due to T5 and high cost.
Should I use icons? Where would you put them? I figure with nothing but fast units and shooters I could place further away for safety and not be hurt by it (19"-24" charge will do that for you).