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Well, played 2 games with a puritan Tzeentch List now. And am posting this up in the hope people will suggest tactics, comment, or learn from this
My list is (roughly):
Lord of Change tooled up
3 Units of Horrors, 1 icon, changeling
1 Daemon Prince w/bolt
So, with a shooty daemon list I have found that, because only half of your army comes down turn 1, you best make it the big shooty units, and the harder units in your army. This allows you to create a "dead mans land" type space. Where you can establish firing lanes, and generally keep the enemy away from you.
For me, I bring down the 2 grinders, LoC, horror unit with icon, and either screamers/horrors. Then with help of the grinders, blow away the nearest threatening units. From there I continue to press into the enemy, while sending Horrors to take objectives along the way. This is why I place my own objectives as near to the enemy as possible. This tactic has worked so far.
Another thing. Tzeentchi Daemon Princes. Now some people like to kit them up for anti infantry. But as I found, they really only shine at popping tanks and close combat. For anti infantry you need a grinder. They're just better at it. I think I will do a Pros and Cons of the two.
Tzeentchi Daemon Prince
Good in close combat
Nice accurate anti tank if upgraded
Can take more lascannons than a Grinder
Breath of Chaos
Can have wings
Weak(er?) to mass small arms fire
Gets expensive (typically a grinder stays at about 160 )
Claims no benefit from cover (unless it's 3+ or you Go to Ground)
Can't multitask (no We Are Legion)
Has terrible anti infantry unless it gets close
Now, the first reason I run my prince is for combat punch. And he does have one hell of a punch. However, for anti infantry, he is bad. Unless he gets close to use Breath, but then it's not really shooting in my opinion. It's too close. Now, in my main list I run a Lord of Change, who is also good in combat. If I ran fateweaver or 2x Heralds instead I would probably run another Prince, just for the combat potential. Now I know grinders arent bad in combat, but theyre slow, clunky, have bad WS etc. So with my prince I run it into combat units while popping tanks. Usually the horrors have maimed said unit so much the prince can slaughter the rest.
Immune to small arms
Nice long range pie plate
Not bad in combat
Psychological Fear Factor
Fleet (which I have never used, it could be useful one day)
Cheap for what it is
Can die to one lascannon
Weapon Destroyed, which doesn't bother princes
Not very versatile
Bad anti tank
The Grinder is, for me, the long range anti infantry. From 2 ft chucking a pie plate and some bolter shots at someone is pretty nice. Mine typically stay at the back of my line, just behind my horrors. Ready to rush forward should something attack them. They are the Wrecking Crew of my army, blowing whole units off the table before dying in about 2 turns due to all the focus fire. But one lascannon at a cheap Grinder is one less at my Lord of Change. Also, try and get them in cover.
That's all for now, I will be back once I have a bit more experience
I would definitely agree with your sentiment on Princes vs. Grinders. I find that Princes need to be specialized to prevent getting too expensive, while Grinders are fantastic jack-of-all trades types.
In a pure Tzeentch army, I would highly recommend Fateweaver over a normal LoC. He costs less tricked out and lets you re-roll failed invulnerables, which is even better due to the Tzeentch units' better saves across the board. All he misses out on is lower stats (not a problem as he shouldn't be in combat anyway).
Everything else looks solid, blast away and use DPs/Grinders to mop up.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
But he isn't good in combat. Which is the main reason I took the lord (and he can shoot). Really that's the big clincher for me. He isn't good in combat. I think I will try both.
As a fellow mono-Tzeentch player, I have a few agreements and a few disagreements with your list.
First, Flamers. I'm the only voice on this, but I hate them - 35 points for a T4, 1 wound model, that may or may not get the pop, but requires a support unit at close range to work effectively. I can see taking 1-2 suicide units of 3 models in a multi-God game, because you can use a plaguebearer unit with an Icon to position them.
Mono-Tzeentch though, that means putting horrors much, much, much closer than they EVER need to be to the enemy. With no icon, you're blind-landing them, which is fine, but you have a decent shot of rolling too far from the enemy to use them on the drop. Land them in cover instead, and they'll likely be shot to pieces before they can make their points back. Which leads into my next point...
Icon? Do you find that you really need it? With the other three gods, I understand - CC armies need positioning. But with a shooty-based army, scatter rolls should tend to matter less. I'd find even one more horror to be a better bargain.
I agree with you in total on DP's vs. SGs, especially in mono-Tzeentch. Their high-BS is nice, but their drawbacks make them too vulnerable to mass fire. I have always been able to rely on my SG to earn its points back, if nothing else, but I can't say the same for a Daemon Prince. It's been my experience that they drop far too easily, and as such, I don't use them in my lists anymore. SG is fast enough (fleet is amazing if you don't have a higher-shooting priority), can pop vechiles (S10 v. back armor), and performs well enough in close combat against anything not a MC. It does the job nicely, and, as you said, is heinous v. infantry.
One question as to the horrors - how many of them are you taking per unit, and are you giving them BoT? The effectiveness of horrors has been something that truly varies for me - originally, I was taking as many as 5-6 units of 5-7 horrors, and spreading the fire around. This also enabled me to throw out a high number of BoT per turn as well. However, I've been finding more and more than 2-4 units of 10-14 horrors are more effective; they simply lay down enough fire at range to annihilate a single unit. However, I've found that their baisc nature is that of a support unit - something to backup the scarrier LoCs or SGs.
Screamers - 4-5 is perfect. Land em out of LoS, and run em up as fast as you can. Hope they don't get shot, but for a cheap anti-tank unit, they can force an opponent to take notice, if nothing else.
Finally, as to Fateweaver v. LoC. There is a HUGE difference between the two of them. A decked-out Lord of Change has a gun for almost every contingency, multitasking, high-CC power, and the speed and toughness to take it and keep on coming at you. His 3+ invuln is amazing by any standards. He is a killing machine, that, if not the best GD, then 2nd only to KoS. (Points v. effectiveness, anyway.)
Fateweaver is a SUPPORT unit. While it has the speed and shooting abilities of the LoC, which make it very dangerous unto itself, it lacks the CC ability of the LoC, which you are almost garaunteed to have to deal with once per game. Lower WS, S, A, and T means you're more likely to lose, or at least be stalled in for a prolonged time in combat that a LoC would bust through quickly. (Massive difference in marines alone - LoC is 3s to hit, 2s to wound, Fateweaver would be 4s to hit and 3s to wound with 1 less attack and a higher chance of marines wounding it. You can see the massive difference right there.) Fateweaver, for his points, is not a unit to be taken by himself.
Fateweaver's twin-linked saves are amazing, and drastically increase its survivability. But if the unit's not effective, then he's nothing but a points sink. If you're willing, I reccomend you try the following, something I've had geniune success with:
Take both. Fateweaver giving a full-force LoC a twin-linked save is a death combo for any army. The two of them together will represent over half of your army in points, but are nigh-unkillable. Both have maxed out shooting capacity and abilities, and while the LoC can handle combats by himself, the two of them together make short work of any unit. It's a horrifying sight to see on the battlefield, and you have no idea how frustrated opponents can get with the 3+ twin linked saves on both space chickens. Your opponents will put a stupid amount of firepower into these birds and ignore the rest of your army in trying to deal with them - to be frank, it doesn't work. They'll laugh off the firepower and keep on coming.
(Figured I'd give my current record, for what its worth - Mono-Tzeentch; 11W, 3L, 1D)
Last edited by SMann233; November 16th, 2008 at 20:53.
Yay, conversation! Right, Here goes.
Thanks for the reply. Maybe we could get some proper Tzeentchi debate going =D
I have to admit, I was a bit tepid at the FW/LoC combo at first as well. The points cost for the two of them is so extremely prohibitive, it made me balk. Watching it in action though made me change my mind.
I have to agree that Bolt of Tzeentch is actually pretty bad for tank hunting. It'd be far better if it had the Melta rule on it, but since it doesn't... best you can really hope to do with it is pop Rhino/Trukk/Dreadnought level stuff. Still, occasionally handy for that.
What I find is a better use for it is adding an extra wound or two to a high-priority MC the opponent has. I'd never expect a unit of horrors to be able to deal with a Hive Tyrant, another GD, Wraithlord, etc, by themselves - that's where the LoC comes in - but being able to dump a squad or two worth of Warpfire shots plus 1/2 BoT's into the MC is worth the 1-2 wounds it should generate; often, this ends up being the difference between the LoC needing 1 turn to kill it instead of 2-3. Further, I've found that the BoT on horrors tends to be a good option against MEQ armies - no save for the standard MEQs, plus the potential bonus against Necrons of no WBB for the warriors. And since the BoT is just an additional gift option, they retain the ability to warpfire on models of low T/high Svs.
I'll admit, thanks to the lower BS of Horrors, it's not the most effective thing in the world, but it sometimes provides an additional answer to a problem situation.Well, when I first started playing Mono-T, I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread, and tried 9 of them. (3 squads of 3 - 1 suicide unit, and 2 that would more or less stick together, but were seperated for their protection) With the exception of a time where they deep fried some Grey Knights Terminators that popped out of a Land Raider (7 + Grandmaster. ) I've never found them to be all that effective. Over time, I reduced their number to 6 and then 3...eventually I just decided that Breath of Chaos itself is too unreliable to count on, and flamers are too much of a 1-trick pony that only requires a single round of bolter fire to remove.Well actually, my flamers usually appear late game, when my princes, lord and occasionaly grinders are already in combat. Also, this is where the Icon comes in handy. I use my flamers as a defensive unit. Big scary unit going to assault my horrors next turn? Not anymore it isn't. After that they get used aggressively. Generally though, they make their points up in one round of shooting. How often have you used them?
I very much agree that they're a threat while alive; and that the opponent recognizes them as such. To me, they just never demonstrated the durability I'd like to see to warrant taking them, given the firepower that's coming their way.
Then again, every single Daemon player out there seems to disagree with me on this. I've yet to find another who actually doesn't like them.
I have found others who don't like flamers so much, though I am one of those who loves them. I also often land them very close on the DS. I always place them ~1-2" away so most scatters will not put them that far away. See even if I roll up 7s which is common on 2d6 the arrow has a good chance of just skirting them sideways or hitting, possibly jumping them to the other side of the unit. And like mentioned before they are pretty much like a disposable razor, sharp and does it's job, though you just toss it when you are done. They are cheap too for a unit of 3. If FW is nearby they get a good chance at surviving, plus they can pop tanks with BoC and rhinos in CC. Play with some buildings too and the ability to still shoot at units inside will make you smile and if guys are up top to shoot back, you still have a chance at taking the building down.
Now with that rant done, I will say I don't think they are needed, I just like them and have had good luck with them. You can get a bunch more horrors or a DP for the same price. I have been on the fence about a mono tzeentch list. I have been running one unit of nettes and often a KoS and some fiends in my lists lately. Horrors just die so fast unless they get FWs save, then again so do the nettes.
I'm in the camp of really liking my flamers. I used them to completely eliminate a Flying Circus leaving only the lord sitting there all alone. I've also had one survive a round of shooting from Double Tapping Necron warriors to then deal another few wounds and draw more shooting from my opponent that could have gone elsewhere.
I've been thinking of a mono-Tzeentch list for a little while and seeing this one gave me some ideas. I'm very fond of my Bloodletters but I think I'll try a variation on this sometime in the coming weeks. The FW/LoC combo sounds excellent and is sure to drive my friends absolutely crazy . I'm hoping to use DP's and FW/LoC to draw fire from the rest so that my Horrors etc. can do some damage. I like the idea and wish you luck with it.
I picked up a fair amount of Tzeentch and Slaanesh Daemons when the codex came out and have played them a bit. I plan to do mono-god armies for both once my Night Lords are built and painted to a point level I can play standard sized games with.
So really I'm not all that experienced with Tzeentch but I have had enough trial runs with Flamers to say I won't leave home without two units of three (except of course in mono lists for other gods). I've always just deep struck them like newsun said in his post. Put them right up close and let fate decide, suitable playing Tzeentch and all. Really playing with an army that deep strikes everything for deployment is already a bit of a gamble. If you're playing them then you're already willing to take a bit of a risk so why not. I've probably played about 7 or 8 games so far mostly against Chaos and Tyranids and so far I've only lost 1 units of flamers to mishaps. I can't even count the times they've payed off though. I remember one game in particular against Death Guard they wiped out a big 7 man Nurgle Biker unit and a 7 man Plage Marine unit in the first turn. That was nearing 1/3rd of his army gone on my first volleys from only 200 points of units. Now they don't always perform THAT well but more often than not they make their points back at least. I find their perfect for dealing with units like Plague Marines with the Feel No Pain or units that could give you trouble like Havoc Squads. I could see them being very useful against Nobz, MEQs in general, Heavy Weapons squads and so on.