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Hail to the Dark Gods
ALright, enough with the formalities. I am really struggling against a friend of mine's Imperial Guard army. His Leman Russ's just blow my footsloggers to smithereens and his many, many lascannons tear apart my mechanised troops. My sneaky plan is to have a Havoc squad, which i have only recently been able to aford, sit it on my home objective/high vantage point and blow apart his armour. So far i hav 2 lascannons for it, but you can give a Havoc squad up to 4 heavy weapons, soooo what else should i give them. I will definitely be playing the Lascannons, and even if you think that is enough, can someone give their opinion for larger games like Apocalypse.
I was thinking maybe adding eithr: 2 Autocannons, 2 Missile Launchers, or one of each, so all the heavy weapons can take out resilient tanks like Leman Russ Demolishers and Land Raiders, but maybe be able to do something else if i play an opponent who doesnt have much armour and the Havocs blow it all up.
Thanks in advance, Revan_101
I'd advise getting at least 2 of all weapons so you have options when designing the squad. Against this one specific opponent though, it does sound like it's his armour that's giving you trouble - lets face it, his lascannons won't be much use if your footsloggers make it into CC.
What's the rest of your army list? I have a Daemon Prince with wings and a Terminator squad with a Chain Fist so I will be able to Deep Strike right on top of the enemy armour and tear it up from behind. I also will usually have a balanced havoc squad with all weapon options. Finally, rounding off my "hard target" capability, I've got a dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon. The beauty of this is that if I get lucky and take out the armour early using my ranged weapons, it frees up the Daemon Prince and Terminators to go after infantry.
For that squad either go with 4 lascannons in Apoc (cost wont matter then) but in normal games get 2 missile launchers or 2 autocannons to go with them. I wouldnt advise having anymore than 2 types of heavy weapons in the squad. How many do you have in the squad?
What else is in the rest of your army though? Relying on the Havocs to be your sole anti-armour unit probably isnt the most reliable option.
Currently play: 4000+ of Black Legion
I'd go with 2 lascannons, and 2 missile launchers. That way once all the armor is gone, you can start dropping blast templates on his troops and frying a guard or two with the lascannons! The autocannons are neat though.
As a guardsman and marine player, There are two things here:
1) Kill the tanks in melee. Rear armour of 10 (11 for a demolisher) means they should be charged and krak grenaded / beaten with fists. The way to kill tanks in 5th is definately melee, and that's something you're very good at.
E.G. 5 chaos marines charge a Leman Russ.
= 15no S4 attacks. (Not using grenades) On average that's 2.5 glancing hits. It shouldn't be firing next turn (5 out of 6 results with glancing hits = no firing that cannon.) If it moved that's 1.25 glancing hits (same as above)
or, 5x marines charge a Leman russ with krak grenades.
= 5no S6 attacks, On average that's 0.83 glances, and 1.67 penetrates. (Halve those odds if it moved) It shouldn't be firing next turn.
Note, the variation in dice rolls is more dangerous here - although better for destroying it, there's less dice rolled so the average is less significant due to the variation.
e.g. it's safer to roll more dice for the lesser result if you only want it to not shoot. If it can't then move next turn, then whack it with grenades (with the auto hit) also remember that in 5th, you hit your opponents tank in his turn too (providing it didn't move) as you don't seperate anymore.
p.s. when charging try to place the chargers so they're concealed / partially concealed by his own tank.
If you charge it turn 3-4 that's given him 3-4 turns of firing (Try to use terrain to block LOS / transport in a rhino with smoke etc.) so, with the scatter dice, which we'll be generous and call a 50% chance of hitting, and we'll say it hit's 5 marines at a time. it'd wound 4. and after cover save kills 2.
He's killed 4 marines before you stop it from working. Not bad, huh?
Please note I do realise actual dice rolls differ, but I feel that's a pretty good statistical breakdown.
Are you using enough terrain? Where are your cover saves?
Heck, against AP3 cannons in open terrain run a terminator squad in front of your footslogging infantry, those behind get a 4+ cover save, and your 2+ save should stop the terminators having too many casualties.
Have you considered deep striking things ? terminators with combi meltas would do well there.
Or, daemon princes with wings also zip across the board to nail that git.
Predators with lascannons (BS3 twin linked, ignore the shaken/stunned result) do well.
Oh, and a obliterator would do well also. It doesn't ignore your armour save (and would in fact be better shooting a heavy bolter at you) and you get to lascannon back - or any other weapon you choose (multimelta adds +1 to damage result due to being AP1 which is nice to remember)
I'd stick with twin lascannons, but if you have to pick missile launchers over the autocannons. Theit templates help vs infantry alot, the higher strength is vital for harder vehicles letting them compliment the lascannons alot better. - In both respects superior to a autocannon - the only thing they're not better at is killing light armour, and your squad should be able to compensate for the fewer shots with the lascannons.
Against guard your best bet is many small units of cheap infantry. Rely on your better T and armour saves, combined with your combat ability to kill his squads. Kill him in melee, not shooting. Don't shoot your boltguns, run or charge.
If deploying first, don't worry. it means one less turn of his shooting before you get in there.
If deploying second, deploy on one side only - don't let him bring all of his weapons to bear against you, hit one flank and roll up the side.
Are you constantly playing annhialation? hit his troops (especially command squads, they're 2kp's each) you can afford to ignore his tanks if it means more dead guardsmen.
Are you playing objectives? get your troops over that board. concentrate on killing his troops in melee, yours should have the durability to survive the return fire (and go to ground in cover to retake a 3+ save vs that cannon if there's no more troops to charge)
Last edited by stayscrunchyinmilk; December 16th, 2008 at 13:59.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
I would go with 2 missile launchers. The autocannons are only good with Chimaras and Sentinels. I would also try to get a Termie squad and make a slight variant on the Karmoon Special (3 combi plasmas. heavy flamer and a chainfist instead of a powerfist). To deal with the lascannons I use raptors, their fast and can occupy lascannon and heavy weapon teams.
As has been said, missile launchers are your best bet in a havoc squad. Lascannons are WAY too expensive (Almost twice the price of a Missiale Launcher, for essentially one more strength and one less AP? No thanks), and missile launchers can also be turned to frag and unleashed on the infantry after the tanks are gone.
Rork: In the dark future of the 41st millennium there is only friendship.
Fenrir: and magic.
Kaiser-: My Little Chaos Marine, Friendship is Heresy?
Thanks a lot to everyone for their advice. It has helped a lot. Special Thanks to stayscrunchyinmilk for his in depth analysis of how to kill lots of Guardsmen.
I will try to post the battle as a Battle Report if anyone is interested. I will go with 2 Lascannons, with 2 more Missile Launchers in larger games. I like the Havoc Missile Launcher models more than the Autocannon ones anyway. Thanks again and the best of luck to everyone who has contributed.
Death to the False Emperor!
Sorry for responding so late
I played agaisnt IG a week ago, I used 10 havocs, IoCG, 2 lascannons and 2 missile laucnhers. I put them behind some good 4+ cover and blasted away all day, I only lost 2 models despite my opponents best attempt to kill them with 2 leman russ's. By the end of the game, one russ was blown up and the second lost its demolisher and was immobilized. The only thing that kept me from really doing damage was he obscurred some of hit tanks including one of the russ.
If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.
Being that the main army that I almost always get put up against is an Imperial Armor IG cheese BS army where tanks are troops, I've had lots of experience getting blown up by them and learned a few tricks. 2 Squads of chosen with melta's (both flavors, guns and grenades) have done the trick for me. I usualy have one infilitrate on one side of the table, move into possition, blast away, and pray for 5's to use the wrecks as covers as they work their way around the tanks. You can then let the other squad outflank and come on one of the sides to divide up some of the damage that will be thrown at them.
Or, alternately, you can deploy your army on one side of your half of the table, and a dread on the other, run up with it and get it closer to his tanks than your guys, it wont matter what you roll at that point. A dread with a multimelta and canopener against a russ is pretty nice.
Yes, I did deep-strike your sister...
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