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Two of my favorite units, destroyed ... and an idea on how to fix them.
They don't ever make their points back and their abilities are too random. IMO, at eleven more points than a normal CSM and six more than a Raptor, Possessed should either roll for two abilities or get to choose one specific ability. I think either option would make them competitive. Also, their champs should be discounted, like the terminator champions.
People will complain "Oh, possessed get an invul save and a point of Strength for those eleven points" but the other marked, elite and fast attack units enjoy a big discount for their kit.
For example, Terms get a better save, a power weapon and a twin-linked bolter for fifteen points.
Raptors get a 20-point piece of wargear for 5 extra points.
And so on.
Make them easier to create or make them better in combat.
Psychic test -> Toughness check means less than 1/2 chance to turn an Orc into Spawn, never mind Marines or enemy leaders. Spawn used to be fun because you could use 'Gift of Chaos' more than once a turn by including one or two cultist acolytes with each Sorceror of Tzeentch. In 4th ed, you could create 6-10 spawn over the course of a game, and you could often get away with Spawning an enemy commander, which was completely worth the risk.
IMO, Chaos should win ties when making the toughness check for Gift of Chaos. This would make it better than 1/2 a chance to Spawn v. T3 and better than 1/3 chance to Spawn v. T4.
The other options would be to increase Spawn wounds, give them a +5 invul save, or increase Spawn toughness. I am not sure which one I prefer.
Comfirmed Disciple of Chaos
Rogue Angel: "Meet da Chaos Lord"
I think the best fix for Spawn is lower their cost a touch and give them feel no pain. I've also thought allowing possessed to roll twice on the chart (re-rolling same results) would make them much more attractive options, also allowing to roll for the ability before deployment would go a long way.
For the spell - I don't think it's that bad. Point at anything, and that's anything with toughness and on a 6 it's dead? for less than 150 points your terminator armoured combat statted force weapon wielding sorceror can just take off the board a carnifex, a SM commander character, A Necron Lord, a warboss, just anyone. If they're not available do something usefull, like picking the power claw nob out of a unit.
Unless i'm mistaken, that's a shooting power, and you can then charge with your new gribbly during assault. (even it's mates from a few seconds ago)
gonna charge with your sorceror? slap the gribbly into base to base with their power fist/claw (If not already dead, as you got a I.C. or there's two.) He then can't detatch and attack your Sorceror (you know, counter-charging thingy)
I do agree, posessed are terrible. I wish i'd mixed my bits into the standard power armour squads now. I'll only ever use them in apocalypse, and even then probably not (Unpainted, with no intention of doing so, annoying to carry due to spikes and poses)
One thing with the spawn - that's terrible wording on their entry.
You can have units of 1-3, right?
But... it says it doesn't take up any FOC space - and that you must split your units into as few as possible.
err.. doesn't that mean you'd never be able to have a unit of more than 1?
shockingly bad writing.
I get the impression the Gavdex was written, at least in part, to punish Pete for the 3rd ed Iron Warriors.
And, in passing, if they pissed off thousands of paying customers to do it, why, that was just too bad for them.
To *improve* on Pete's version, they should have changed Marks to Cults -
How cool would 0-1 Possessed Berzerkers or Possessed Rubrics etc, be?
Just copy/paste the Troops entry with +10pts for +1WS and +1S @-1I.These are a waste because Al and Gav tried to shoehorn them into the Fast Attack slot.Spawn
Only they forgot to make them fast . . .
We only had 2 Units to fill 3 slots.
So, something had to be done.
Just. Not. That.1/3 chance vs Marines, 1/6 chance vs T6 to T10. No, that's not what's wrong with Spawn.Toughness check means less than 1/2 chance to turn an Orc into Spawn, never mind Marines or enemy leaders
Besides being ugly, overpriced Mr. Potato Head models, their rules are a trainwreck.
Okay, that might be a little strong. Make it Cootie . . .
O Spawn! How do I loathe thee? Let me count the ways:
Mindless. Why? There was no clinging to old fluff when it would have *helped* our lists.
S&P. Why? How long ago did they stop selling that godawful snail model?
Must minimise Pack numbers. Why? What earthly sense does that make?
Minimum Packs of three - yet sold in boxes of two? Brilliant, guys.
And the real pip - Beast. Or rather, the combining of Beast + S&P.
Now, we need a flowchart to figure out how this thing moves.
Toward the nearest enemy model.
Which is always a Tank or Walker.
Nineteen inches away . . .
In case anyone here hasn't made a cheat sheet for these little marvels yet, feel free to copy mine:
Movement phase = Higher of 2d6in > Shooting phase = Run d6in > Assault phase = Charge higher of 2d6in.
No, I'd say halve the price of Spawn for a start.
Then, at least, they might seem marginally effective.
OK, I concede they may be slightly pap.
I also admit i am trying to make my CSM army without using any Lashes or Plague marines. (On the CSM Army Lists, please look and comment : http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ting-list.html (My first Chaos Space Marine Outing List) I was thinking of getting some spawn for giggles, trying to convince myself they're OK, but actually, I concede they're not.
I'm going to go buy a box of lesser daemons now.
On the Gift of Chaos thing ... it's not a straight 1/3 for marines, 1/6 for everything else, because you have to pass the psychic test first.
You also have to be really close, so with the Sorceror-in-a-unit scenario, you will only get 2 or 3 chances to Spawn an enemy model. If you're in CC with something T6+ worth Spawning (Fex, for example), 2 to 3 turns in CC means it kills your Sorc long before the power works. You're better off with Winds of Chaos or Warptime or even just using the Force Weapon.
Last edited by Sabrewulf; February 5th, 2009 at 15:09.
Comfirmed Disciple of Chaos
Rogue Angel: "Meet da Chaos Lord"
So, here's a new, improved cheat sheet:
Move highest of 2D6 => Run D6 in shooting => Charge double the highest of 2D6.
Then => Have opponent laugh at you with taunts of "what the hell is that" etc etc.
Ill say it right off the bat, i like the possessed.
The models are great and theyre fun to use.
I'll rant on a bit now, as i always do when folks think random = fail.
(hey at least they wont bite your head off like the dread does)
It's not the models fault if they don't bring in their points, it's the commander's.
csm cost + 11 points gets you:
+1 base attack, but loses grenades and bp + bolter.
(immune to certain dark eldar trickery at least)
5 points Cheaper champ upgrade than csm.
ability to take a rhino AND icons.
This more than covers the extra points paid for them imo, however, we get a free ability on top of this worth anything from 1 to 15 points (on each model).
Having a whole squad with powerweapons for instance is nothing to sneeze at, now, if only fleet would have been included in their profile instead of in their chart, they would be pure gold.
Spawn is meh at best.
They even fail at fun, friendly games.
Remove mindless or s&p.
either remove fearless or give them an armorsave
Drop them down 10 points
Remove or drastically reduce their points value when created by Gift of chaos.
It's basically the platypus of 40k..
as in, everytime someone looks at it, they go "WTF was that thing's creator smoking??"
Spawns are just worthless to take as "fast attack". If they at least had kept their 3+ armor save, they would be usefull (if they remained the same points).
However the gift of chaos power is quite a funny power. Not great like warptime, but a tzeentch sorcerer or deamon prince is quite funny, as he can use the power twice. Especialy when one of your victims is his comander or beter a special character. There is nothing more funny than to reduce, let say, Marineus Caligar to spawndom.
As for possesed, they are rarely usefull. They only are usefull when you rolled power weapons or FNP. But even then they aren't realy great. If you want power weapons, then take a group of terminators and if you want FNP then take Death guard. If possessed where less expensive, then they would be more compatitive. Too bad though, because I happen to have have 15 possessed >_>'.
arachnid, it's nice to see someone taking up the cause of defending possessed. However, I suppose the main issue with them is not the randomized upgrades, but the fact that the randomization covers so much, and therefore, their role in an army hinges on the mood of the dice. If, for example, possessed only had random weapon options (i.e., rending, power weapons, furious charge), then players would at least have stability in other areas, such as movement. Conversely, if movement was random and the weapon options fixed...
However, since the random factor incorporates both movement and weapons, along with the defensive chance of FNP, it's nigh on impossible to figure out their role, until after the game begins. This is my beef with these critters, that is, if you roll for power weapons, then you still have the burden of getting your possessed into c.c.. However, if, let's say, you compensate by bunking them in a rhino, then it's wasted if you roll for fleet of foot. I think GW should have narrowed the random factor down to just one area.
On the other hand, I have to agree with you about their cost. When you add everything up, they really are a pretty good deal. If we compare the possessed upgrades as found in 3rd edition we find that +1S (daemonic strength) costs 5 points per model, and 5+ inv save (daemonic aura) costs 10 points. Hence, using the CSM template of 15 points per model, we find that the possessed should cost 30 points, strictly given the above upgrades. Then, there's fearless, which is worth something around 3-4 points. Finally, as you mentioned, they also have the dice role, which is easily priced between 5-10 points. So, the estimated value of these fellows is somewhere around 38-44 points per model, and yet we get them for 26 a pop (same cost as 3rd edition bloodletters, which I think we can agree are generally superior, although that's another issue all told). Of course, this isn't considering the limitations of possessed, such as the lack of heavy/special weapons options, and that their champions have no additional upgrades available to them. The lack of these versatile options would certainly cause a reduction of the possessed cost to some degree.
In the above comparison, certain possessed stats were omitted: +1 attack & the +1 leadership. Here's why-
1) While possessed have a +1 attack over CSMs, CSMs have an additional c.c. weapon. These then cancel out (as arachnid mentioned in his post).
2) While possessed have a +1 leadership over CSMs, CSMs nearly always come with a champ, which effectively raises the squad's leadership to 10. These are then canceled as well.
Side: While possessed champs are cheaper, they are also less effective, since they don't have access to further upgrades.
But really, when comparing possessed with CSMs, we shouldn't merely consider the basic chaos marine, but also the typical CSM squad configuration, which is 10x marines with glory icon, 2 specials, a fisting champion, and a rhino: 255-265 points. This brings each individual marine to around 25 points.
Spambot kill tally. . .337