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No. It's a balanced psychic power.
Yes. Even a single lash is broken.
Yes. When used in pairs.
Yes. When used in conjunction with blast templates.
Cheese is subjective. There's no such thing as a cheesy list.
I know it's good, but it's a medium range psychic power. Why do people cry cheese and try to make you feel guilty about using the Lash?
People don't have problems when you drop pod in sternguard with combi plasma or something similar. So why does Lash get such a bad rap?
First, Makoto001, I agree with you. The lash is just one piece of wargear, and there's not a single model in the game that is cheesy by itself. However, the moment you bring out your lash prince, eyes start rolling, regardless of the rest of your army list. The lash gained it's notorious reputation, because opponent's don't like losing control of their models. However, there's sufficient counter powers out there, although they aren't available to every army.
On the other hand, while the lash is only a mid-ranged power, at the same time, nearly every lash is wielded by a model with a 12" movement (speaking from the chaos codex). In essence, a well positioned lash user in the center of the table can pretty much reach any infantry he likes by the end of round 2. Most player's don't know how to deal with that kind of scope.
I've had players complain about my use of a single lash prince. I always inform them that the lash itself is not cheesy, and then politely repeat, "The lash is just one piece of wargear, and there's not a single model in the game that is cheesy by itself."
That said, dual lashes tends to be, if not a pungent two year old bleu cheese, then in the very least, a bastardized American cheddar. But I'll let someone else give their two pennies on this part.
EDIT: I'm constantly up against a Space Wolf player who drops dual dreads in drop pods behind my lines, outfitted with melta guns. I can't tell you how often I lose two predators on the first round to them; and yet, that's not cheese? Cheese is relative, cheese is subjective, cheese should not be spoken in regards to the tabletop, unless it comes on a hamburger with a side of fries.
Last edited by Rabbit; February 19th, 2009 at 19:16.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
I really don't think lash is that cheesy either. Many chaos players like to just take lash because everybody else is taking it thinking that it's good.
First of all, a DP does not win games, you can get it into CC and maybe kill a unit and then it will get shot up and die, trust me I know.
Second of all, there is an easy way to get around lash which many players are doing these days, they are called mech lists. Of course the only army that can't do this are nids and that's just too bad for them.
I don't even use lash in my lists because I don't think its worth it, it's never really helped me at all. The best way to use lash, at least the way I've seen are with sorcs hiding in squads. He uses a lot of blast weapons in his army and uses lash to just group together a unit and either use a vindicator, obliterator, or a blastmaster to kill them. I don't really think lash is worth it to just get a DP into CC.
Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them
I feel that a large source of the 'cheese' outcry over the lash is simply due to that fact that it is one of the only effects in the game that allow a player to move the opponents models. Speaking from a personal standpoint I would rather suffer a significantly powerful shooting attack than have someone take control of one of my units.
On a side not I once saw a player lash two full units of well equipped marines together and then drop a pie plate on them. It was dirty.
Last edited by Agate; February 19th, 2009 at 17:37.
Agate's Theorem TM
Awesome + Awesome = Double Awesome
Also there's the fact that out of the chaos psy powers, "lash" and "Warp time" are the only one worth any merit , anything else is pure rubbish... And the HQ selection being what it is , you'd be a fool not to field a prince. Facing the same dreadfully predictable Chaos list , over and over and over again really gets redundant/ boring , Its: 1-2 daemon prince (Slaanesh/Nurgle) , between 2-4 plague marines , berzerkers , regular marines or a combination of all of them , and an assortment of defilers/vindicator (Possessed) and 2-3 oblits... Oh and you may have a token "Original" unit somewhere as a desperate attempt to avoid the terrible realization that your list is the same as everyone else !... I'm sorry i'm just venting here.
Personnally i don't blame people that take 1-2 lashes , what else is there to take really? I'm not going to ask my opponent to handicap himself deliberately because the codex lacks balance.
"The things that appear are a vision of the unseen"
-Anaxagoras of Clazomenae
Reason 1, it allows for a turn 1 charge, especially if you bring two. Reason 2, it stacks with pie plates for unacceptably good killing. Get some skill! Reason 3, nearly all tournament lists look the same: two Lash Princes and Defilers/Vindicators. Reason 4, several armies are helpless against it, Tau and Guard in particular but also Chaos and Orks. Reason 5, the primary reason, is that if you don't design your list with Lash in mind then you are going to have a very hard time.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
EDIT: I hope you don't mind, but I added a poll to this thread.
As far as our psi powers go, doombolt, for its price, is acceptable (not great, but it does the job). Also, WoC has incredible versatility, what, with being capable of inflicting wounds on anything from the lowly grot, all the way up the ladder to a carnifex. What's more, it receives a 'glancing hit' against vehicles on a 4+. Pretty amazing little template.
A clever lash prince can easily, when combined with a CSM unit, take out an entire enemy squad around (post leadership tests). But the real benefit of the lash is that it virtually guarantees you the charge.
Side: If I were GW, I would have made the lash 50 points.
Last edited by Rabbit; February 19th, 2009 at 19:02.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
Someone always cries cheese when they can't use that power.
It's like it was said above, woohoo, droppod 2 multimelta dreads behind the lines, but that's not cheese, you being able to move my devistators is though.
Whenever someone in a tourney whines that my dual lash princes (my NORMAL tourney list only uses 1 though, only being out the 2 if there is a prize) I just ignore it and be even more cheesey than I planned on being, instead of just moving the enemy into a charge, move them into dual vindi shots.
Let the other armies think it's cheese, everyone has their cheese, necrons have gauss, SM have droppods with dreads/assault marines, chaos has the lash, nids have the acid bomb BS, guard will be getting armor formations, blah blah blah
Everyone uses the best they can get in a tourney.
Yes, I did deep-strike your sister...
Necrons : W-8 D-3 L-7 (Sleeping in their TombFoam, waiting for a new codex)
Chaos Forces (CSM/CD): W-42 D-19 L-28
Apocalypse Games : W-4 D-0 L-1 (4 Titans, Brass Scorp, 3 Baneblades, 2 Bombers, 3 Fighters, and a Partrage in a Pear Tree)
I think the use with pie-plate weapons with lash is just kind of a really easy combination with a very risk/reward ratio. I try to avoid using the lash incombination with pie plates unless it's to stop a very strong unit that has to go down, i.e. assault termies with SS/TH, nob bikers.
I try to stay away from vehicles in general since most lists carry a lot of AV firepower, if I bring mostly troops to the table that kind of makes all those points they spent worth much less.
The only vehicles I really bring to the table are rhinos, aside from that I stick with my troops.
I don't think it's cheesey.. it's just boring seeing it in every single list.
And that's not a comment on Chaos players, it's a comment on the Codex.
It's a cool idea, it really is. They just made it a bit too good, so that it's almost foolish not to take it. It's not game breaking, it's just good.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC