Nurgle-type chaos lord? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    4 (x1)

    Nurgle-type chaos lord?

    So i am trying to choose the best choices for my first chaos army with what i have, and for HQ i have a blister chaos lord who has a combi melta on his bolt pistol and a power fist. Well I was thinking of giving him the mark of nurgle and counting the power fist as the nurgle daemon weapon instead since it seems logical that it could be considered a claw with disease and plague on the nails ( i like to stick to representing my army's wargear as close as possible on the model). Does this sound like a good idea at all? And how exactly would I be able to employ him in a stratagy?

    Or on second though, would it be better to take the mark of slaneesh so he has the weapon that causes instant death no matter what? I'd think thatd be a good choice but im not sure how i can make it fit lore wise that a big giant fist/claw is a slaneesh weapon.

    Last edited by Murfywat; April 8th, 2009 at 18:04.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    with Alice
    Age
    39
    Posts
    8,843
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    946 (x8)

    Slaaneshe's daemon weapon is a better buy for your buck. It pretty much does the same thing, if not more, as the Plaguebringer 99% of the time. The only situation when it would be better to have a Plaguebringer is against pesky S8 models, such as a C'tan. Even then, who in their right mind would through a Plaguebringer Lord against a C'tan?

    Have you considered giving your lord the Undivided Daemon weapon? I find it to be more consistent than the cult variants against most opponents.
    Spambot kill tally. . .337

  4. #3
    Member FluffyTemplar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Age
    32
    Posts
    97
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    28 (x1)

    Actually, I didn't think very much of the nurgle deamon weapon at first because most things don't have T > 4, but for poisoned weapons, the rule goes if your strength is the same or higher than opponents toughness, you reroll to wound instead. This makes it a much better option. Also regarding the blissgiver, far too many things that have more than one wound are also immune to the instant death rule, which unfortunately makes the HQ hunting ability kind of lackluster. (This could just be me as I seem to play Tyranids a lot)

  5. #4
    LO Zealot mynameisgrax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Freehold, NJ
    Posts
    4,014
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    511 (x8)

    You're Better Off With Grots: Daemon Weapons

    This looks like the perfect opportunity for me to bring my recurring Ork topic: 'You're Better Off With Grots', to the Chaos boards, as I've never been very impressed with daemon weapons, and can't understand why so many people use them.

    The only ones remotely worth it are Slaanesh's and Nurgle's, but neither are as consistent or cost effective as my basic Chaos Lord setup:


    Chaos Lord w/Mark of Khorne, Pair of Lightning Claws [130]


    If you like, you can even chip in a few extra points and give him terminator armor. This setup gets 6 attacks on the charge, 4 hits, and 3 wounds that ignore armor saves.

    By comparison, an undivided daemon weapon is slightly worse, only giving you 6.5 attacks, 4.33 hits, and 2.86 wounds on the charge. Kind of odd, considering it costs more.

    A Lord with a daemon weapon of Nurgle (Plaguebringer) is slightly better, as it gets an average of about 6.5 attacks on the charge (counting the fact that he gets 0 attacks if you roll a 1), which results in 4.33 hits (assuming an opposing WS and toughness of 4 or lower), and 3.25 wounds that ignore armor saves. Yes, it's slightly better than the lightning claws, but is it worth both the added cost and risk? I personally don't think so.

    The Slaanesh daemon weapon (Blissgiver) is interesting, as it causes instant death. This weapon gets a Lord 6.5 attacks, 4.33 hits, and 2.16 wounds that cause instant death. Of course, you have to compare it to a powerfist, which (when weilded by a Lord with MoK) gets 5 attacks, 3 hits, and 2.5 wounds that cause instant death. For the added cost and risk, and slight reduction in power, all you're really getting is a significantly higher initiative. If that's what you're looking for, and you're willing to make significant sacrifices for such, then go for it, but otherwise I wouldn't bother.

    The Khorne daemon weapon (Bloodfeeder) seems great at first, as it gives you an impressive average of 9 attacks, but that's only 6 hits, and 3 wounds, no better than the lightning claws. Worse yet, the weapon is horribly unreliable, failing about 30% of the time. For a player that craves consistency, that's enough to drive you mad.

    The Tzeentch daemon weapon (Deathscreamer) has an interesting shooting option that's similar to an upgraded doombolt, only with the danger of injuring yourself, but it's no more effective during the assault as the Blissgiver, and unlike the Blissgiver, it doesn't cause instant death. If you want impressive shooting attacks then you're better off taking a Chaos Sorcerer, as they have far deadlier options, and a force weapon to boot.

    All things considered, you're generally better off sticking with a pairs of lightning claws. Sure, they've never given my Lord 10-17 attacks in a single round, but they've never backfired and killed him either. ^_^
    Last edited by mynameisgrax; April 9th, 2009 at 21:15. Reason: forgot one thing
    "Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
    http://www.librarium-online.com/foru.../mynameisgrax/

  6. #5
    Member FluffyTemplar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Age
    32
    Posts
    97
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    28 (x1)

    Yeah, I started to realize that the daemon weapons weren't really worth it myself.

    Unfortunately this was only AFTER I modelled and converted (but not painted) my lord.

    I didn't think any of the weapons in the sprue looked good enough to be a daemon weapon so I used a carnifex scything talon and modelled it onto the sorcerer's staff to make a really massive scythe. Of course his hand then looked puny by comparison so I had to make him hold it with a power fist.

    I was so proud of it until I started reading more into my codex and have since written it out of all my lists.

  7. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    4 (x1)

    hmm well, Im beginning to think of giving my lord the mark of khorne and just letting him keep his power fist and attach him to my berzerkers. I will just count his weapon as a normal bolt pistol (since I guess i can just use my imagination and say that the combi melta on the boltgun is already out of ammo for that battle).

  8. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    38
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    12 (x1)

    Personally, I am a fan of the daemon weapon. Yes, it may be somewhat unreliable but it also has the best potential killing power of any lord option. For Khorne and Slaanesh lords, I can see taking other options as the Khorne weapon is really unreliable and the slaanesh one is not that great unless you want to send your lord character hunting (something I try to avoid with regular lords). However, other than possibly Khorne and Slaanesh Lords, if you aren't taking a daemon weapon you shouldn't be taking a Chaos Lord.

    The Daemon Weapon is the reason you take the Choas Lord. That potential to unleash horiffic CC damage on an unsuspecting opponent is the point of a Choas Lord. If you want a reliable CC HQ, take the Daemon Prince instead. He has more wounds, Eternal Warrior, better strength and higher toughness. Not to mention the fact that he adds to target saturation issues for your opponent. A basic winged Daemon Prince is cheaper than almost any well geared lord to boot.

    I am not saying I am oppossed to Chaos Lords as I tend to use more Lords than anything else but that the Daemon Weapon is the underlying reason for using the lord.

  9. #8
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    with Alice
    Age
    39
    Posts
    8,843
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    946 (x8)

    Here are a few stats that may shed some light on daemon weapons as compared to our other weapon options available to our Chaos Lords. Bearing in mind, these stats are factored against MEQs, and do not include the charge, nor any of the other weapon-specific non-damaging effects, such as the decreased initiative of the power fist, or the poison mechanic of the Plaguebringer, or the instant death of the Blissgiver. These stats don't really prove anything, but they do give some notion on how these weapons perform against basic marine infantry.

    Note: All random effects are averaged out, as well as the chance of rebellion from the daemon weapon. Just for fun, I've also included at the bottom the stats for a sorcerer with Warp Time, since he fills the same role.

    with power weapon: 1.3 kills
    with power fist: 2.3 kills
    with twin lightning claws: 2.0 kills
    with Undivided Daemon weapon: 2.4 kills
    with Bloodfeeder: 2.5 kills
    with Deathscreamer: 2.2 (factored off a single round of using the daemon weapon's shooting ability)
    with Blissgiver: 1.82
    with Plaguebringer: 2.7 kills
    Sorcerer with Warp Time: 2.4

    Once, cost is brought into the equation, the numbers change drastically. Below is the number of points paid for each kill inflicted by the weapon (weapon cost only; not the cost of the lord or marks). For example, a power weapon costs 'X' points. This cost is then divided by the number of kills produced by the power weapon (Obviously, the lower the point cost the better )

    with power weapon: 11.5 points per kill
    with power fist: 11 points per kill
    with twin lightning claws: 15 points per kill
    with Undivided Daemon weapon: 16.6 points per kill
    with Bloodfeeder: 16 points per kill
    with Deathscreamer: 18 points per kill
    with Blissgiver: 22 points per kill
    with Plaguebringer: 14.8 points per kill
    Sorcerer with Warp Time: 10.4

    What can we deduce from these numbers? Not much outside the static hallways of theory. However, it might be of interest that in my little scenarios, the daemon weapons actually cost more per kill than the lord's non-daemon weapon options. Furthermore, a sorcerer with Warp Time ends up being the best all around generic infantry killer.

    EDIT: Apparently, the Plaguebringer is indeed the most cost-effective daemon weapon available to chaos lords. It's even more efficient than twin lightning claws.
    Last edited by Rabbit; April 13th, 2009 at 18:18.
    Spambot kill tally. . .337

  10. #9
    LO Zealot mynameisgrax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Freehold, NJ
    Posts
    4,014
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    511 (x8)

    Hmm?

    Why ignore weapons specific rules? Some rules/penalties, like low initiative of a powerfist are indeed impossible to quantify, but re-rolling to wound isn't impossible to quantify, and it's an important mechanic. In fact, you're counting it when calculating warp time, so why not quantify it for poisoned weapons and lightning claws as well?

    You also have to consider the fact that most people who arm their Chaos Lords with power weapons, power fists, and lightning claws are also going to take Mark of Khorne. I really don't see a reason not to take it, as it makes them 25% more effective (not counting the charge) for only a 9% increase in cost (or less). If my mathhammer is accruate, that brings Lightning Claws up to 2.5 kills, as many as the bloodfeeder, only with far less randomness.

    What I'm getting at is that when using daemon weapons (besides the bloodthirster) you're not only losing the extra CCW attack, you're also losing the attack from the Icon of Khorne as well, dropping the Lord from 5 to 3 attacks, greatly reducing their effectiveness.

    Yes, if you ignore a few key facts, then daemon weapons seem better.

    Then again, if you ignore a few key facts, then the Nazis won World War 2. ^_^
    "Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
    http://www.librarium-online.com/foru.../mynameisgrax/

  11. #10
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    with Alice
    Age
    39
    Posts
    8,843
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    946 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by mynameisgrax View Post
    Why ignore weapons specific rules? Some rules/penalties, like low initiative of a powerfist are indeed impossible to quantify, but re-rolling to wound isn't impossible to quantify, and it's an important mechanic. In fact, you're counting it when calculating warp time, so why not quantify it for poisoned weapons and lightning claws as well?
    To answer your question, I included the Warp Time re-rolls because it is indeed a 'damaging' effect. I'll refer back to my earlier post, when I said, "Bearing in mind, these stats...do not include any of the non-damaging effects..." Poison falls into this category, as does the instant kill mechanic of the blissgiver. 'Non-damage' based effects are much more arduous to qualify, if qualification can be established at all. I probably should have added a more precise description rather than 'non-damaging' effect, calling it instead a variable too conditional in the general theme of warhammer for putting into numbers. As well, my comparison as stated was really to show how these weapon types dealt with MEQ infantry, in which case, neither poison nor instant death come into play.

    Side: If you look at the math, I did include lightning claw re-rolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynameisgrax View Post
    You also have to consider the fact that most people who arm their Chaos Lords with power weapons, power fists, and lightning claws are also going to take Mark of Khorne. I really don't see a reason not to take it,
    Simplicity really. The Mark of Khorne is an extraneous variable, in that it is not a necessary upgrade. However, if you wanted to go this route, then you must also look at how the other marks affect the lord; how Nurgle would enable the lord a more sustainable close combat, thus increasing his attacks in the long run; how Slaanesh...how Tzeentch. In the end, it boils down to simplicity in order to demonstrate a very simple, very theoretical point.

    BUT, since this is important to you, I'll go ahead and tally the points per kill for a Khorne Lord with dual claws, which comes to 14 points per kill (1 point cheaper than a non-Khorne Lord with dual claws).

    Quote Originally Posted by mynameisgrax View Post
    What I'm getting at is that when using daemon weapons (besides the bloodthirster) you're not only losing the extra CCW attack, you're also losing the attack from the Icon of Khorne as well, dropping the Lord from 5 to 3 attacks, greatly reducing their effectiveness.
    Assuming players field lords with the mark of Khorne whenever they're using non-daemon weapons, then yes. That, however, is a rather bold assumption, especially when most of our army lists posted on LO do not include the mark of Khorne for lords without daemon weapons. If they did, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynameisgrax View Post
    if you ignore a few key facts, then daemon weapons seem better.
    I believe you might have misunderstood my previous post, as my entire point was to illustrate the superiority of NON-DAEMON weapons. I even alluded to as much at the end of my post: "...daemon weapons actually cost more per kill than the lord's non-daemon weapon options."
    Spambot kill tally. . .337

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts