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I'm an ork player who, on more than one occasion, has come across the issue of what constitutes as the base and hull for a defiler.
My chaos friend (with friends like that who needs.. oh never mind) has two defilers modeled. One of which has a clear imaginary square outlined by its legs which led me to think that this square that extended to its feet would be its base (for purposes of assault, etc.) but then he informed me that the front two legs were actually arms for the defiler and to prove this showed me his other defiler that is modeled in a way that the front two arms are twisted inwards (eventually to be holding an ork warboss in a rather sick looking conversion), which then makes sense for the base to not extend to the front two legs as these are just arms. In the same way I can't shoot his daemon prince just because I can see his sword is sticking out over a small building or something to that effect.
Along with assault this also came up in shooting. For example, my dakkaguns might be in range to shoot the arms in front (or for the sake of argument perhaps the legs on the side), but didn't actually reach the main core of the defiler where the guns and engine are. In theory, I can still immobilize, wreck, etc. a walker if I blow out its legs, right? But what if a blast fell in between those legs and/or arms. We were lost and couldn't come up with a solution that satisfied both of us. Rolling off each time we have a problem seems potentially unfair to either one of us and we'd ideally like to play the game based on rules used in Grand Tournaments (would be a shame to get to a GT only to look like a cheat/fool).
Also, deep striking and drifting close to the defiler might one day (though it hasn't yet) prove to be an issue. If the unit lands in between the arms/legs is it a mishap? Mind you, this ruling would also apply to the shooting thing. If it's mishap then shooting at these arms/legs would have to be ok and blasts would be at full strength here. Whereas, if it isn't mishap then shots don't hit and blasts would be half strength here.
Eventually, we came to three possible solutions, but have yet to truly decide upon something that makes sense to us both. These solutions are as follows:
1) The Defiler has a square shaped base that encompasses all six arms/legs as if the model was put together with all six on the ground. Blasts that land within this square are full strength and any shot reaching the square is in range.
2) The front two arms are not included in the base but from the front of the main body all the way to the back legs and all the way out on both sides is a smaller rectangular base that is treated the same way as the base above, only smaller.
or 3) The only base the model has is the main body where the battle cannon, dreadnaught weapons, etc. are mounted. If the range of the gun doesn't reach here it doesn't hit and unless the hole of the blast marker covers this part of the model it is only half strength if it hits at all.
One viewpoint is to see the arms/legs as extra appendages (like the daemon prince's sword from above) and shouldn't make the defiler itself more vulnerable to fire just because it's bigger. On the other hand, it kind of acts like terrain blocking movement, breaking line of sight, etc. and generally getting in the way, thus meaning that the appendages should then suffer the detriments of its size as well as reap the benefits.
Needless to say, we're stuck. Please help?
"Orks have to be followers of Nurgle! They're green, smell bad, and just want to spread the fun!"
What me and my friends do is just make sure the legs dont move in the game. So I will measure distance for assaulting/shooting with my defilers and likewise, I will be shot or assaulted with the same parameters. So long as the legs/arms dont move a whole lot, there shouldn't be any problems.
From the rules standpoint, all scatters are taken literally on whether or not they are directly over the model (bearing in mind that only the center of the blast marker is full strength against vehicles, whereas the rest of the marker is half-strength). So, if the center of the marker lands over a leg, then yes, the defiler has been hit with the full strength of the weapon. If the center of the marker lands in between two legs, then the defiler would not take full damage, but only half damage (assuming part of the defiler remains still under the blast marker).
LoS for shooting purposes: Unfortunately, all legs, heads, arms, etc count for visibility, with 'obscured' rules still in effect when applicable. Banners and extreme accessories are generally excluded; however, defiler legs certainly fall in the category of an 'arm.' Thus, a legal target. In your example with the dakkagun, you would indeed be capable of shooting at the defiler if you can only reach the defiler's front legs.
Deepstrike: Remember, you CANNOT come within 1" of an enemy unit when deepstriking. Hence, if you can actually fit a model between the defiler's claws and still be farther than an inch from the defiler, then sure, you can do that.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
Me and my friend had this same problem last week, it really came down to the wire in a match between my Chaos and his Nids.
It was the last turn, if we measured from the legs i assaulted his last 2 warriors and probably won the game, if from the hull where the battle cannon lies, then i didn't get to assault and he might win. We rolled on it to see but like you said this felt like it was probably being unfair to one person.
I've since started to think that it probably should count the legs as part of the model, as Rabbit said. I think I read it somewhere in the rulebook about it, if I can find what I read I'll be sure to post it up...
This seems unfair though as then I can model the Defiler so that it's frontal claws out as far as possible, potentially giving it a few more inches of assault distance.
Does anyone else have an opinion on this seemingly grey area of the rules?
The way me and my friends play, its to the Central hull, since its believable that the Defiler would "Curl up" behind cover to avoid enemy fire, and would move and retract its feet and claws accordingly. Just like if the Avatar held its spear by the very end, with the tip 3-4 inches off the base, so could the defiler... but in order to actually be effective in combat, he would still need to be right next to the enemy. Same with the Defiler, in order for it to fight effectively, and for the enemy to fight against it, they would need to be against the center hull.
This rule actually came from me and my friend "subbing" in various models with paper cutouts before buying many of our models.
I count only the hull and the torso to hit for a defiler, the legs to me are more like decorations and it seems inplausable that a shot in the legs can blow it up.
More to the point: all of the weapons are mounted on the main body anyway. All distances for shooting are measured from their barrels (Which is negible, in most cases) so its not like your getting an extra 3" for shooting because the guns are mounted on the claws. If you converted it as such, that might make the rules a little more cloudy.
What you guys are saying makes sense but I still think theres shady areas.
Like if a squad is assaulting the defiler head on between its claws. Even it it's claws are wrapped around the unit, models that are within 2 inches of a model in contact with the claw arms but not within 2 inches of a model in contact with the actual hull, do these guys get any attacks? It would be difficult for all the models in the unit to get into ocntact with the hull for a large squad of Orks for example.
Or if the Defiler is assaulting a Land Raider, if it's modelled so that the Land Raider will not fit in between it's claws, does it gain an extra few inches of assault range because it will just have to measure from its forward claw arms?
Nope, measure from Hull to Hull. Remember, all hits on the LR are taken on the Rear armor, so this is basiclly the Defiler running up, and clawing at the top, sides, rear, ect. Remember, the claws would move in combat, and the enemy would have to be inside the Defilers range of motion to be able to hurt something. The Defilers clas reach out several inches, yes, but he's not going to hurt anything by poking it! It needs to get in close, to claw at it, and be able to bring some force to bear on it.
The front claws are weapons/wargear therefore are not targets or block LoS.
As for the hull it is where the battle cannon and other guns are.
Last edited by Chaos Sorcerer Gir; July 3rd, 2009 at 12:24.
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