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So my friend runs a Godzilla Nid army. 2 Carnis usually about 200 points a pop, backed with a Tooled up Tyrant, a squad of warriors, a token Gaunt squad, and a Broodlord lead Stealer squad. Right now, I'm sitting on a record of 2-2-2, but my 2 wins were next-turn loses, and the 2 ties were because I managed to contest an objective at the very last second.
My biggest problem are the Fexes. Either hang around the objectives, making sure I don't get lucky that often, bombarding me with Stranger shots. They might only get 2-3 marines a turn between them, but it adds up. And for the love of god, my Havok squads absolutely refuse to bring the hurt on them. I've tried 2 squads of havoks with 8 Lascannons... I *ALMOST* got one down. In 5 turns...
I can't get my head around this... DSing Termies get chewed up, no matter how many lightning Claws or Power fists I come packing. Best I can hope for is killing one of the carnis, then being left with the broken, battered remanants of a squad that was worth up to twice the single fexes cost! I was thinking about swamping him with a ton of summoned Deamons (Tie them up for the whole game) and while it did, in fact, pin one down for a half dozen turns (Well more then I need), THAT squad costs 50 points more then the damned Fax in the first place!
I toyed with the idea of a Defiler Bum rushing him (Tooled up for CC). This of course, is damned near suicide. Its like a joust... if I score at least 5 hits, then I have a decent chance of smoking him. If I hit 4 or less, Hes going to rip my defiler apart.
I dunno what to try. I think I had the best luck with 2 Havok squads with 8 Lascannons. Should I keep trying that? I ran through it 4 times while writing this with dice... I averaged 3 turns to drop one of them, with all 8 Lascannons sniping him, with no cover. Is there a better option? Or do I need to investing in Rabbit feet and 4 leaf clovers?
Edit: My army list for my next game reads something like this atm: 2K points, and its has
HQ: Termi Sorcorer with Warptime and Bolt of Change, with a 4 Termi Squad with 4 LCs and Combi weapons. Their job is to disrupt synapse as much as they can. I also have a Deamon Prince of Slannesh, again for Synapse attacks, then for anything that needs a whackin.
Elites are the termies
Troops: Squad of 5 Plague Marines with 2 Meltas and an Icon, in a Bare bones Rhino. 2 Squads of Standard CSM, both with Plasma and Lascannons. (Ok, the Fexes MAY have influenced a bit of my weapon picks). The Plague Marines are there to snag or contest an objective, the 2 squads of 10 are to hold mine and put more fire power on any Big bugs who aren't cooperating. I also have a squad of 20 Lesser Deamons, to drop in to grab or contest an objective, preferably against the one his gaunts are holding.
Fast attack: Squad of 3 Bikers with Icon of Tzentzch, and an Icon. Deamon Beacon.
Heavy Support: Squad of 5 Havoks, 4 Lascannons. Thats all for them. A Defiler with a Autocannon, and DCCW.
Sorry for turning this into a "Rate my list" post... I really, really hate those damn Fexes... and I really wanna rub my friends face in 2 dead fexes!
Last edited by Tribesman2004; July 1st, 2009 at 01:03.
A variation of thje 'Karmoon Special' terminators will tear them apart. Take a 5 man squad of terminators, with one powerfist, and 5 combi plasmas. This squad comes out at 185 points per squad, and they get 10 plasma shots on the turn they come down. That equates to, I believe 3.333 wounds (Armour ignoring) on a carnifex at T7 (With that upgrade thing) and 4.444 on one without it. Then, the powerfist SHOULD finish it off, when the carnifex charges you.
Your problem with the terminators is that you are trying out out CC a CC Carnifex. This is not the way to go, you are much better off weakening it with plasma, before fighting it in CC.
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The above post is solid advice. There are three rules to help when dealing with foes in 40k. When being outshot get them to combat. If they beat you in combat find a way to outshout them. Make any model take enough saves and even the toughest model will start to fall.
A few options off the top of my head:
Like Riptor said, 4-5 deepstriking termies with 1 fist and a lot of combi-plasmas. Comes in cheaper then the 'fex with solid chance of toasting it or at least tieing it up a while.
Infiltrating or Out-flanking Chosen with Plasmaguns. Good for wreaking a little havoc in general, and great for hosing down MCs with plasma wounds.
1k Sons squad with Gift of Chaos on the aspiring Sorcerer, prefferably in a rhino. Tarpit and a chance to spawn it, with scoring status to boot.
Daemon Prince with wings and warptime, icon to flavor.
Also, I'd sooner take Oblits then lascannon havocs in almost every situation. More flexibility for the points. For 10 more points then your 5-man 4-cannon squad you get 1 more wound, termie armor, relentless, fearless, powerfists, a plethora of other weapons, and only lose 1 lascannon shot a round.
Triple-lascannon Predators instead of quad-las havocs to shave some points, maybe enough to get another pred or a vindi depending on how your other picks shake out.
There's a lot of options available that can deal with MCs. Just gotta find the ones that fit best with your army.
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His list isn't that bad. I've seen lists with 6 carnifexes and 2 hive tyrants before. Now, that's truly nasty.
Here's several things you can do against him:
2) Typhus (Wound on 4's, Instant death if they are out of synapse)
3) 4-5 termies w/combi-plasmas, PF + MoT
4) Lash + lascannon predator or oblits - everytime his carnies get close, use lash to push him away and keep firing your lascannons; the pred or oblits is cheaper than a squad of havocs
5) Chaos dreads - sure they'll get destroyed in cc, but at least they're cheaper than the fexes and attack first in cc; give them an extra DCCW and that's 5 I4 S10 attacks on the charge.
6) Gift of Chaos - it's risky, but on a Tzeentch sorcerer, you have a 1/3 chance to change the carnie into a spawn
7) Berserkers - on the charge, make him roll enough and eventually he'll fail some
Well, ran it through the dry run a few times, Killed the Fex outright once, took 4 wounds off 3 times, and did 3 or less (Would consider that a failure, unlikely that I'll have a squad after the assault, and the Fex might still be standing afterwards...) twice. Any ideas for the 2nd fex? I'm hoping the 8 Havoks with Lacannons, the 2 in the squads, plus the plasma guns strewn about with reckless abandon will give him pause... but as you might have gathered, I haven't had much luck with these beasts yet
one thing I'm not liking is the size of your plague marine squad. 5 is really small. and keep in mind they can take 2 plasmaguns/meltaguns as well, and they have FNP if he decides to send his gaunts to tie them up.
the karmoon special is a great idea for the terminators, and you should try it out. I noticed you made comments about the carnifex making them into a snack, but as others have said, you can't try and out CC a CC monster. the only things that might be able to go toe-to-toe with a Fex (MAYBE) are the Eldar Avatar and C'tan.
there's a tactica about fighting the nids somewhere on the forums I suggest you read. probaby the best idea I saw was taking a squad of raptors with 2 meltas and a power fist.
Also, as someone else said, Obliterators stomp over Havocs. they're alot more reliable and have more options. if a Fex gets within 24" you got multi-meltas on them too.
The only time I've went 1v1 with a Nid player he gaunt spammed me, but I've watched him throw Nidzilla at multiple people. Just listen to what the other members are saying and definately try out the Karmoon special. Its the only way I use terminators now (unless I wanna try and out-cheese someone and throw a termicide squad down).
The best way to take down a carnifex is to multi assault the carnifex and a gaunt brood. You should easily wipe out the gaunt brood and because the carnifex is fearless it will have to take no retreat wounds.
Well, the nice thing is, my friend never assaults with his gaunts. They sit on an objective, and his Stealers rush forward and take objectives. With a Fex sitting right next to them, firing away. He usually takes Crusing claws and a Stranger, but due to his ungodly luck, In 6 games I have never seen him get less then 3 attacks more then once a game. We've switched dice, tried digital dice rollers, everything... the man is blessed >.<
But since I can't beat that, I tried swamping him with numbers of shots... hench why I went with Havoks over Oblits. They get 4 shots instead of 3, and I can have 2 squads instead of just 1, though I guess nothing stopping me from taking a squad of each. I understand the Oblits are much more versitile, but the rest of hi army isn't a huge problem. His Genestealers are bad, but I can handle those (Even if I did teach him about Outflanking moves >.< Yeah, I'm a bonehead!) His Fexes stand next to the objectives and just bombard my army, and while usually he only claims a handful a round between the VCs, Strangers, ect, the Fexes are a road block. I'll try the Karmoon Termies, already put them into my list. He usually has 2 small squads of Gaunts, one backed up with a Warrior brood, the other with a Tyrant, and both have a Fex standing behind them (Assuming that he has 2 objectives on his side).
Thats why I'm not too worried about the size of my Plague Marines. Since I also have the Deamons, neither unit needs to take and hold an objective, just contest it until the end of time. If he ties them up in combat with his gaunts... he's handing me a freebie.
Edit: About the Termies, is 1 PF really better thn 4 pairs of LCs? That means 4 extra attacks for the squad that rerolls the to wound roll, which is the big advantage to the PF, wounding on a 3 instead of a 6. Surely (Not counting the HQ charactor) 12 LC attacks would put out more wounds consistantly then 3 PF attacks? (Assuming the PF holder was a champion, and the LCs were not)
Last edited by Tribesman2004; July 1st, 2009 at 16:31.
Last game I played against nids I took a gamble and charged a squad of khorne with a power weapon and a lord with power weapon too as well as a defiler into the fex all at the same time and only JUST, repeat JUST killed it. The lord rolled 2 wounds which was well above average for him cos hes terrible mostly.
To have to spend roughy 500 points to take down a fex with just the extra wound bonus was ridiculous, and of course that left all three squads out in the open to get slaughtered by any and everything next turn. I think nid players take them well for granted especially for their price.
If I had to take it down with guns I'd probably try heavy bolters, might not wound as much as lascannons or get through his armour but if it does they will hurt for sure and if you want to change targets they will demolish the small gaunts incase you feel like just denying him of his minions.
And also zoans/warriors are not that tough for synapse creatures, put enough bullets into a zoan and that 2+ save is worth bugger all and the 6+ invul is next to nothing useful.