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As mentioned previously on LO i'm starting a Word Bearers force with the £50 battleforce set.
Now my questions are three fold...
1. I have always been inclined to utilise two special weapons in my CSM 10 men squads, but have seen an increasing amount of people play with one Heavy and one Special. What are your thoughts on this? To me it seems like wasting the potential of 9 men in order to fire one gun, but i thought i'd check it out.
2. Champs with combi-weapons/plasma-pistols. Are they worth it? And would you make the combi weapon the same category as the squads set up? E.g. plasmagun x2, plus combi-plasma on champ? Or would you keep the combi shot different to give some flexibility if the situation arrises. E.g. meltagun x2 plus combi-flamer? Is that one potential shot worth 10 points, or should i keep my champs cheap, especially with the new wound allocation rules (dont' want to loose a 65 point champ - CSM, champ, powerfist, combi-weapon).
3. And finally, i'm planning to break the box set down into 2 x 10 men squads and then an 8 man squad (the possessed parts will be mixed in with the very warped and chaos-y marines). Looking through the codex, i worked out that i can get an 8 man squad of havocs with four plasmas and a powerfist champ for roughly the same points as a full 10 man CSM squad. Was planning to use this squad to reinforce my lines and for pumping lots of shots into enemy MEQ units and termis. Have people any experience of a squad like this? I'm worried that i'll have too few troops, and that it would be better having a CSM squad with two plasmas instead. Also are infiltrating/outflanking chosen any good in your experience?
At the moment, it looks like i'll have 2 CSM squads (10 men) in rhinos, a power armoured lord/sorceror, a few lesser daemons and what ever the chosen/havoc/csm squad mentioned above happens to be, in my 1000 point force.
P.s. if i don't go with havocs or chosen then i'll upgrade the 8 man squad to 10 men, potentially running 2 squads of 10 csm, one of 9 berzerkers (modeled to be bloodied word bearer veterans) with the lord. All in 3 rhinos. with lesser daemons in support.
Many thanks for any replies, and good gaming
Alot of people don't like the Havoks. I love them. They aren't as flexable as a squad of Oblits, but give you more shots, and even if you give them 4 Lascannons, they are cheaper. And they can be given a Rhino. SOme would say "But Tribesman, with the Oblits, they have Power fists! They can hold their own in CC!". If your Heavy Weapons team gets stuck in CC, you've lost your heavy weapons team. Even if they don't die, their going to be held up long enough that the enemy will be able to move out of their LoS, or until the end of the game. All the same, keep the Havok squad 5 man strong. No sense wasting 3 more bodies when it won't get them any more weapons. Keep them focused: They are there to put heavy fire down range... you can have 4 guns, and the squads 5 minimum. Besides giving the odd man out someone to play cards with while they wait, there's no sense in putting them in there.
Your list looks good. Maybe get a pack of 5 CSMs, put the 3 extra bodies with them, and toss your Lord in with those in a Rhino. That would give you a Lord with some upgrades, 2 squads of 10 CSMs with Champions and upgrades (I usually give them special and heavy, more on that later) and a squad with 9 CSMs (for the Lord to ride with), in 3 Rhinos and the 5 Havoks.
I like to give my CSMs a heavy weapon for a few reasons. They will, half the time, be sitting on an objective. I don'twant them to move from it. So, it makes sense to me to give them something to help them hold it. Autocannon, or Heavy Bolter. Maybe a Missile Launcher, take your pick.
For my Champs, don't like the Plasma Pistol. I don't fell its worth its points, nor the risk. A Plasma gun is, however, since it can reach out and touch someone at 24". I usually go with the same Combi-weapon as the special weapon in the squad, if for no other reason then I'm less likely to forget to fire it at the same time.
Granted, you could Drop a squad, and get some Termies, or a Defiler. And its temping... but don't Troops win the game. Big guns get kills, but Troops win the game. Either because you swamped his squads with enough bolter fire to break them, or you had enough bodies to take their fire and hold the obective, or you had an extra squad that could hold that Carni/Avatar/other uber unit in CC for a few turns. There are times when I would say go for it... Orks, for instance, in smaller games, simply cannot deal with a Defilers or Vindicator's armor. But, by and large, your troops will be the ones winning your games.
I disagree with a 5-man Havoc squad.
Havocs, by their nature, are the heavy weapons specialist. if you only have 5 of them, all the enemy needs to do is kill one before he can start picking off your heavy weapons. This was advice given to me awhile back by someone on this forum and also advice I saw in practice. If all it takes is 2 wounds to start getting into those nasty lascannon/missile launcher shots, then the enemies are gonna pepper them with shots.
Given the choice between using Havocs or Oblits, I would choose Oblits. I've used both and found that Oblits have much more surviveability, however, they don't stick around the entire game most of the time either. When your opponent sees infantry being used as heavys, they usually target them with no remorse. If you're going to use heavy choices, I would choose armor.
As for the chosen, they can be quite effective if you know what you're playing against. Throw 5 flamers into an 8 man squad and outflank them against nids, orks and IG, they will dominate. Throw meltas and PFs into a squad, outflank them and watch them rip tanks apart against heavily mechanized armys.
I would also advise against putting heavy weapons into your troop choices. As i stated above, people are generally pretty predjudice against troops with heavy weapons and will target them right away as it's an easy way to cut off heavy fire. Even when they are sitting on an objective, I don't want to give my opponent any more reason to want to pick off the guys holding a victory point for me. Also, I wouldn't typically split the type of special weaponry in a squad (ie. would never equip one with a flamer and one with a melta) it's just bad business.
Firstly, as far as Havoks Vs Oblits goes, Oblits are far and away more versitile. But consider, a squad of Oblits Vs a squad of Lascannon equiped Havoks. The Havoks have MORE firepower, and still cost LESS, points, and money wise. And that's with the most expensive weapon option. Havoks are a more focused HS option; if you know aproximately what your fighting (Tank heavy IG, MEQs, Swarm nids, Speed Freak Orks, ect) the Havoks can be tailored to give greater firepower, and are less likely to draw fire then Oblits are, due in part to their "Under the radar" models. Oblits are big and scary looking; everyone fighting Chaos knows they are a huge threat. Everyone underestimates Havoks due to the smaller (Easier to find cover) models, and their less then raved about reputation. For the record, if you stay away from Lascannons, a squad of 5 Havoks with 4 weapon choices will cost the same as 2 Oblits. Assuming those are Missile equiped Havoks, they retain their versitility, and have twice the firing models.
There could be some arguement to beefing up the squad... certainly, they wouldn't be wasted points, if/when your Havoks do get shot at. And at 15 points for each extra "wound" for your heavy weapons, its not a bad deal.
The other point is this: If the enemy fires a considerable amount of fire into the Havoks, that's fire thats not ripping into your scoring units and Rhinos. I don't really see how that could be a terrible thing, unless its the first turn, and your Havoks just got eaten alive before firing a shot.
To each their own, and really, I am looking into getting some more Oblits... but my view is, as I said before, Troops win the game. Havoks do the same job, maybe a little less effectively then some other options, but they are much cheaper, which gives me more troops.
5 havocs (4 with lascannons) costs 215 points, 10 points cheaper then 3 obliterators.
I'll spend the extra 10 points for the 2 wounds, power fist, relentless special rule, 2+ save, invulnerable save, and multitude of weapons.
Against a tank heavy army, sure. Now, would you take 4 Lascannons against Orks? Or would you take 4 Autocannons or Missile Launchers for 155 points? You'd only get 2 Oblits for that. Or maybe Heavy Bolters for 135. Against Tanks, Oblits are kings. Against Infantry or Light armored vehicles, they start to lose effectiveness fast against Havoks.
lol 5 points... but then, The oblist have less wounds in that case. Yes, they do have plasma cannons... that can still kill them. Being infantry, their plasma still gets hot. And personally, against IG or Orks... Autocannon has 2 shots, at longer range, and wounds on a 2 with no armor save. Heavy Bolter has the same range, and wounds on a 2, with no armor save, and gets 3 shots. Missile launcher wounds on a 3 (Hey, they can't ALL be winners!) usually with no save, and a blast. Would I like Plasm cannons in my Havoks? Damned right I would! But them not being an option is really just a handicap against MEQs (Plentiful though they are these days), leaving Havoks unaffected against Light tanks and infantry.
the main problem i see in havocs is their lack of shooting capability while moving. yes, oblits are slow but you have enough movement to correct your possition to limit incoming fire and still shoot at the desired target.
in those mechanized days, i find the havocs to get their LOS blocked way too easily by one empty transport, giving everything behind it a cover save or blocking LOS completely. oblits, however can move to another angle to fire to full effect or efficially destroy the roadblock with their (multi)meltas and a subsequent charge (eventually).