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A champ costs 15 points and a power fist costs 25. That is 40 pts on top of the base 23. People seem to think you need a champ to deal with dreads etc. These 40 points give you 2 hidden power fist attacks instead of 2 normal attacks (3 on the charge).
If we have 3 squads of PM's that is 120 (or arguably 189) points.
A Winged Nurgle DP is 150pts. He is not hiddnme but is mighty tough. His anti mech ability is good (str 5 i think plus 2d6 armour pen meeaning an average 12) plus he acts on a decent I, with 4 base attacks. If I dedicate him to forfilling the champ role then do I really need the champ.
When playing them PM's seem fab, but their champs seem expensive and often the powerfist seems a bit of a waste, especially as I often hold with them rather that charge (although I do charge). On charging units I think Champs are great (my zerkers always include on) but on PMs it seems more questionable.
The only other advantage of the PM is to include a combi flamer/melta for 10 points. But I can get a psionic power on my DP to cover that.
Like you already said the PF helps deal with things like dreads. Thanks to 4th ed. I always include sgt.'s/champs in my units, and they almost always have PF's. I've been charged by dreads, wraithlords, Talos, and not to mention instant deathing independent characters, too many times in my gaming career. A great example is the librarian that killed an ork warboss with his force weapon, and then getting killed by a nob PK in the same combat. Or my ravenwing sgt. Who took down a wraithlord one on one by himself in one round of combat.
I admit I dont use Plague Marines very often, as I'm a slaanesh player, but I'm willing to drop from I 5 to I 1 for those reasons.
I was looking at the PM stat line, and the +1 attack bonus for having a close combat/pistol combo is not included. So they get 2 attacks, three on charge. Doesnt that go to say that we would also add +1 attack to the champ for his two weapons , say pistol and pfist, so that he would have 3 attacks, 4 on the charge?
You don't get a bonus attack for PF and pistol/ACCW. They, lightning claws, and thunder hammers only get an additional attack if coupled with the same type of weapon.
Armies: (Chaos) Space Marines [1250pts], O&G [2250 pts], OK [1000pts]
Da face of Mork looks down on the Gobbers of da Bwoo Moon, da bestest Gobbos eva.
I'd say no, they aren't necessary. The deciding factor is that the unit is already fearless and so doesn't benefit from an AC's leadership buff. Paying that many points just to kill Dreads and Wraithlords isn't usually worthwhile.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
oh.....im gonna make this a few points more. I not only put Pf on my champs, i loooove combie wepons with then as well. oh yes..massive points. But when you watch your plague marines wipe out and hold up 30 man ork units in two rounds or three, you thank yourself for the indulgance. i love plaguey goodness
How will the DP fulfil the champions role?
My own feeling is never skimp on points for upgrade characters. (a hard learned lesson)
Id never take a PM champion without the Powerfist to be honest. Power weapons just arent worth it due to the average Initiative and if you end up running in to a power weapon weilding character-he will just eat through the PMs easily enough without reply. Taking the PF champion also means your opponent has to be wary of attacking the squad.
I dont have any combi-weapons in my squads though.
Currently play: 4000+ of Black Legion
I guess it depends on how the PMs are being used.
One of my local CSM players hardly ever takes power fists because of the price and he's really suffered for it a couple of times, it makes the squads a little toothless is close combat against power armoured opposition.