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I play with and against chaos and i just need to say that i hate Lash of submission, i think it is cheeeeese and i hate that everyone suggests that you should have it in your army.
needed to vent, sorry.
I feel the same way, I really don't like when i see a Khorne list with a lash prince or sorc, Why would a slaanesh daemon prince lead a khorne army, unfluffy, and so many people like to use it in so unfair ways, in my opinion, but that's just me, felt like i should share.
If a man wants to live let him fight, If a man does not want to fight he does not deserve to live.
Look.... Yes, lash is powerful. Yes, it can be abused. But so can Nob Bikers, Farseer + warlocks on jetbikes, etc, etc. Most races have 1-2 units that everyone hates and people complain about.
The reason that everyone recommends to take it and that you see it so often is because the lash prince is quite literally one of only a few HQ choices that are worth their points in the CSM codex.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!
I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.
Lash is the power that helps you win more games, not win more friends. The reason it is recommended in a lot of armies is because it works. Unless someone says to keep their army fluffy, you'll get a lot of Slaanesh Prince w/ wings and lash or Nurlge Prince w/wings and warptime suggestions. Also, as stated above, it is one of our only HQ choices worth their points (I enjoy Kharn myself, but his fluff is the reason I play this codex to begin with so I'm biased).
It's always whine whine whine whine whine lash is total cheese
Wait, I have to roll scatter for my 2 droppods carrying dreads with multimeltas, 1 sec
whine whine whine whine whine
I use a lash in my tourney list, but I mostly use it for annoyance, ever keep a master of the forge moving back and forth behind a wall so he can never use his beam of death on anything, it makes the other player want to bash his skull in with a hammer.
The only real game deciding use I have ever had for the lash was a last turn charge and lash a unit off their objective.
Yes, I did deep-strike your sister...
Necrons : W-8 D-3 L-7 (Sleeping in their TombFoam, waiting for a new codex)
Chaos Forces (CSM/CD): W-42 D-19 L-28
Apocalypse Games : W-4 D-0 L-1 (4 Titans, Brass Scorp, 3 Baneblades, 2 Bombers, 3 Fighters, and a Partrage in a Pear Tree)
by the by, that means no dread drop pods, no 3 land raiders, no nidzilla, no warlocks on jetbikes, and ESPECIALLY no nob bikers! fair is fair after all!
I used to play alot of world of warcraft and and picked up a very relevent phrase from those days.... "cry more n00b".
edit: but hey, I guess nidzilla's ok right? I mean you seem to think so:
ONLY CHAOS CANNOT BE CHEESY! US EVIL BASTARDS!
Last edited by Demoneyeskyo; September 5th, 2009 at 05:28.
Dr. Seismiclove ,Or how i learned to stop worrying and love the lash.
Compared to other powers in the book, lash is in a category of its own. In fact, when looking at the current core rules and synergies in the codex, lash is the only thing to give chaos some teeth. Quite contrary to what people think, lash isn't taken out of poor sportsmanship, but is in fact taken out of necessity.
I dare ... no wait, i DOUBLE dare a any chaos player to a game without lash, and i can guarantee that i'll win (Barring some freak occurrence, my middle name incidentally). This particular issue with chaos makes its a double tiered army: Fluffy but pitiful or lash centric and competitive. And has others have pointed out its not that dissimilar from other abusive units ... aside from the fact that you're touching my models with your greasy Cheetos encrusted maladroit fingers, you're ruining the paint! In any event i have more fun in a competitive environment anyways.
My principle objection is simply on game mechanics: Taking 2 lash prince , 1 with wings, One could, if one would choose to, lash a unit of feeble guardsmen equipped with heavy weaponry 12", then with odds stacked against him but still in the realm of possibilities, could lash for an extra 12" with the second prince. This unit's owner could, if he chose to, move 6" during his movement phase and then issue the "Run, run, run" order to add 12" extra inch. This unit, managed to travel farther than a landspeeder can turbo boost: To recap, Guardsmen outpacing landspeeders... on foot.
Statically improbable, i know. But its feasible. (Unless i've misread some of the rules. Guards weren't has popular as they're now near my place so i'm not too familiar with them). That logical gap really irks me.
Now if you're really interested in taking down lash lists, you can easily build a counter to that. Pretty much every army can now days, its certainly something i keep in my when making my lists.
"The things that appear are a vision of the unseen"
-Anaxagoras of Clazomenae
I love lash. But you know what is good against lash? Mech lists. And you know what's really competitive? Mech lists.
I fail to see why you w(h)ine for my cheese. There are ways around it.
Necron Army Building Maxima: Beware of Phase Out
I play a mech list, using a Daemon Prince with wings and the Mark of Khorne--no lash--and I win the vast majority of my games. Lash is good. It has a wide range of powerful applications and can alter the game in a wide variety of ways, but it is neither unfair nor necessary for the Chaos army to be competitive. As's been mentioned, it is of little value against fully mechanized lists and there are a a couple of anti-psycher options which make it a dubious pick in context.
The assertion that it is unfair or cheesy is, frankly, absurd. It's the best psychic power in the game. So what? One of them has to be best; that's just the way things work.
The assertion that it shouldn't be advised to new players is similarly absurd. It is a very good power, and the Lash Prince is a very good unit. We'd be remiss if we didn't suggest it to other players.
Finally, the assertion that it is necessary for a Chaos army to be competitive is also absurd. It is one of the best abilities in the army. There are plenty of other good units. Almost every other Daemon Prince build is competitive, and most of the good units in the army are good whether you have a Lash or not. Further, the Lash has problems--its effectiveness is severely reduced when facing fully mechanized armies, runes of warding, or psychic hoods. Not only is it not the only good option, it is not even the best option for every situation. Against fully mechanized armies, Warp Time and Bolt of change are better. Against an Eldar army with Runes of Warding, a Prince with the Mark of Khorne is better than any that rely on psychic powers.
Once again, the conservative, sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor!