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Hey fellow Daemons!
Been playing Daemon for about a year now, my list had been a frequent tourny winner for some time and rightfully feared. It took some time for people to get adjusted to a army where everything deepstrikes, basic troops with power weapon and ridiculous things like fiends and battlecannon ironclad.
However, people are now much more adjusted to fighting such an army, and with the rise of guards and mech lists, i'm finding that i'm not winning as consistently as i used to. Most of the army brings enough firepower to beat LR spam, and suffice to say that this metagame doesnt bode too well for my Grinders, so I started looking at possible replacements.
There's a big-ish tourny coming up early November, and I'm going to enter with an adjusted list. I'm currently deeply contemplating the thought of switching out my Grinders with 3 DPs (one of each Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch) and invest heavily in fiends. I'd like to hear some input from the likes of ===You=== and other daemonic veterans as to whether this was a good idea and if it's appropriate to take one of each at 1850pt.
Slaanesh DP: Hide, Might, Pavane, Aura
Tzeetch DP: Bolt, Gaze
Nurgle DP: Hide, Wings, Flies, Noxious Touch
1. Target Saturation
This is an argument for all princes. Things with high enough strength or AP to get pass Iron Hide have very few shots and is generally not enough to bring down the big boys whose sitting on 4 T5(6) wounds with 3+/5++ and therefore will draw a significant amount of small arms fire - weapons that will destroy other parts of your army. Every shot fired at the DP is one that's not firing at your Fiends.
Adding 6" to fiend's already impressive movement in addition to pulling units out of cover = win, as fiends don't come with grenades
BS5 bolt is the best thing for popping transports, when is the last time you killed a rhino on a charge only to get flamed or blade-stormed to death the next turn? Kill their ride and then charge it with fiends
The Nurgle DP is largely for the huge threat level and forcing enemy to put wounds on T6 models or risk a charge from a model that is guranteed to put out power weapon wounds for every hit. This is essentially so that people will see this model, spend at least half of the army's shooting in taking it down while allowing the fiends to rip some faces the following turn.
Any input is appreciated.
I recently won a tournament with Chaos Daemons as well, and I use the 3 Daemon Princes and plenty of fiends strategy (I also throw a Keeper of Secrets in for good measure). I don't have anything against Soul Grinders, I just don't own them (although I am in the process of converting some). From what I've seen, they tend to fare better in games under 2000 points, where there isn't quite so many lascannons around.
I haven't had any experience with DP of Slaanesh, but DP of Tzeentch and Nurgle are my personal favorites.
I'd give the DP of Nurgle 'breath of chaos', and you can probably drop the ironhide. It comes down to personal taste, but I've found that cover saves are good enough against shooting (although depending on the situation, cover may be difficult to get), and CC hordes have a lot of trouble hurting T6, so I don't think it's worth the points. Breath, on the other hand, will make it an infantry killing machine.
I'd keep the DP of Tzeentch exactly as you have it: bolt, mark of Tzeentch, and nothing else. At 140 points, they're an amazing bargain.
The only better bargain in the codex are fiends. At S6 on the charge, with a ridiculous number of attacks and rending, they can claw through just about anything. Just be sure to deepstrike them behind the daemon princes/troops, so the fiends don't get shot up too much.
Honestly I'd just go for the Slaaneshi Princes. Bolt really isn't that reliable of a transport popper, especially for 140 or so odd points. Fiends and Flesh Hounds can tear up light AV in assault with so many S5/6 attacks. Nurgle Princes end up crazy pricey and I'd rather have Fiends to mince up MCs. They are very tough and quite killy, they just end up pricey.
A Slaanesh Prince has Pavane at BS5 (fleet for itself or somebody else), Grenades, Hit and Run, and gives you some decent S MC attacks. It's fragile, but if you take 3 you get that resilience by redundancy and they support Fiends exceptionally well.
Nurgle or Slaanesh are ==My== picks for DP, Tzeentch has its uses but I prefer face-smashing.
I'd also like to add to the Slaanesh prince w/pavane band wagon by saying; Pavane's profile says that it can only move an "enemy" unit once per turn. So whats to stop you from Waltzing a unit right into your opponents back pocket?
"Understand, mortals, that every one of you,each of your so-called
champions, is just a piece in the Great Game of our Masters."
While we're talking about bolts, I've got 2 Tzheralds for bolt/Gaze and a KoS with might and musk for HQ.
I suppose dropping the Tzeentch prince could be a good idea, but i do intend to put might on it and use it in CC as well, it's also no where near as expensive (Nurgle at 215pt, Slaanesh at 175).
My 1850 list is as follows
2 Tzherald, Chariot, Bolt, Gaze, WaL
KoS, Might, Musk
6 Fiends, Might
6 Fiends, Might
6 Horror, Changeling, Bolt
Tzeetch DP, Bolt, Might
Slaanesh DP, Hide, Aura, Pavane, Might
Nurgle DP, Hide, Flies, NT, Flight
If i swap out all the DPs with Slaanesh DP, I would have the room to drop the flamers field a total of 18 fiends instead but i personally find a unit of 3 are great for torching things on the turn they come down, so that's quite the predicament.
No icons? That can be a little risky, but it's up to you.
I'd drop might off the fiends, as strength 6 (on the charge) with rending is strong enough. I'd also drop might off the dp of slaanesh, as its primarily a 'shooty' unit.
The dp of nurgle could really use breath.
If you have any points left over, a few extra bodies in the unit of pink horrors would be nice.
Otherwise, the list looks good. Good luck!
I wouldn't bother with Horrors at all really. Beyond 2-4 units of 5 PBs for holding objectives, Bloodletters are the only Troops I'd take. They're cheap and make excellent mop up units to finish what your Fiends start.
Nurgle Prince is scary, if a high priority target, but for the other two I'd just go Slaanesh or Tzeentch, one of each is trying to do too much for those slots. Tzeralds can do the Bolt thing pretty well, more speedy monsters are always handy.
This is where ==Me== and I disagree, so you'll have to just decide for yourself what's best.
I personally love pink horrors. The trick is they seem to work best in either small groups of 5 with bolt (as anti-armor) or 8-10 with changeling (as anti-infantry). I wouldn't take more than 10, and if you want them to have bolt, I'd only use minimum size, but I really like them as a unit for grabbing distant objectives, whereas the plaguebearers are best for grabbing objectives in your own deployment zone, since they stand up to shooting a lot better than they stand up in close combat (not enough attacks).
I find that Tzeentch princes seem to draw as much fire as the nurgle ones. People get scared by bolt (although this is primarily when fighting MEQ opponents).
I personally prefer daemonettes over bloodletters, simply because the daemonettes have a much better chance of actually reaching close combat. At least in my experience, the fiends don't need any help finishing off opponents in close combat. In most games I've seen, bloodletters don't earn back their points. They can help sway close combats, and easily trash MEQ, but not enough to warrant their cost, in my opinion.
The trick with daemonettes is you need a lot of them, at least 15-20. Seekers are better, but can't claim objectives, and are harder to deepstrike in, so use what you like.
I've noticed that Daemons don't do 2000+pts very well, but generally do ok at 1500~1850.
I have those Tzheralds from when i was using Soul Grinders, always helps to take out some multimelta speeders and they mow down lots of MEQ.
I've got the horrors there because I have a fair amount of them, and I always find them useful against orks one way or another, particularily this once I dropped in behind 2 squads of 12 lootas, shot down 4 from one squad and comes their shooting, directs the big loota squad against the small one and completely wipes it out. It's fun and quirky.
Having multiple small units will help with making very unbalanced drops, but i'm not sure about the kill point missions.
With the comment regarding dropping the might off the princes, I'm not very sure that that would be a great idea, especially when up against Nidzilla or Wraithlord spam. The prince would be in CC whever possible as I can't just rely on fiends to do the job for me. The KoS helps, but each Slaanesh DP are essentially a cheap KoS without condiments.
Finally, how do fiends get s6 on a charge? they don't have furious charge.
2 Tzherald: Chariot, Bolt, WaL
1 KoS: Might, Musk
Tzeentch DP: Bolt, Might
Slaanesh DP: Hide, Aura, Might, Pavane
Slaanesh DP: Hide, Aura, Might, Pavane
5x Pink Horror, bolt, Changeling
5x Pink Horror, bolt
7x Plague Bearer, Instruments
7x Plague Bearer, Instruments
13 Units, 4 Scoring, 45 models.
Primary Drop: 1 Fiends, 1 KoS, 2 Tzheralds, 3 DPs
Sorry, I meant strength 5. It's 6 on one if you give them the unholy might. I sometimes give them the upgrade, just to help pop tanks, but only one fiend in the unit can have the strength upgrade, and if I need to save points, it's generally the first thing I cut.