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I've been looking around this forum (I'm normally only found on the general and hobby forums) and people have been giving new players some great advice and I was wondering if I could get any ;-)
I have a daemon army, reasonably large, but money and storage space constrains mean that I can't buy anything else. It was collected purely based on what appealed fluff and atheistically to me, with only the most basic idea of tactics. The fact it all had to be stored in one bag of 4 foam trays ruled out grinders. This pretty much means I think I've shot myself in the foot.
Anyhow if I say I normally play against necrons, marines, tau and eldar (but mostly the two MEQ armies), if I point out the the marines player has almost every option going, and if I list what I have to choose from, could some kind soul tell me if I could make up an effective army?
2 x Tzeentch Heralds
Khorne Herald on Juggernaught
40 bloodletters (4 have icons and 4 have daft horns)
4 old metal bloodletters that I figured could be heralds or leaders of units (mystery box at games day)
2 Blood Crushers
1 Fiend (mystery box at games day)
20 Flesh hounds
Winged Khorne Prince
Winged Tzeentch Prince
Unwinged Khorne Prince
I'm pretty much limited to this now, my space and money has run out, mostly space.
So far my experience is:
The bloodcrushers (I use the herald as just a crusher) just get shot
The Letters mostly get shot, but the one or two models that make it to the enemy lies eat MEQ.
Things scatter lots and I loose lots to mishaps
Horrors kill lots and lots, but not my opponents fixate on them
Same goes for the Flamers
The winged Tzeentch prince does well but is expensive
Is there a decent 2000pts army hidden in there, or do I just have to accept an uncompetitive army is the price for an army you like the look and fluff of?
Single Fiend makes ==Me== cry
Grinders aren't always necessary, bringing MCs generally balances thing out.
Now, about those DPs. Are they totally locked in their alignment and wingedness?
2000 points you could do this:
Bloodthirster w/ might, blessing
2x Tzeralds w/ chariot, bolt, master of sorcery
2x Juggers, fury
2x 3 Flamers, 1w/ bolt
3x 10 Bloodletters
2x 10 Flesh Hounds, add Karanak to one, fury in both
2x Tzeentch DPs, bolt, gaze
Adds up to around 1985
You've got basically 4 MCs (crushers can count as one), 6 units w/ bolt to go after transports, 2 speedy units of doggies, and Bloodletters to mop up or hold objectives.
Thirster, hounds, Flamers, even the Tzeralds use their mobility to hem the enemy in so your Crushers and Bletters can get to work. Always drop your Bletters near or behind cover so they can stick around the longest.
If you were so inclined you could count the winged DP as another Bloodthirster and run him instead of the Tzeralds. 2 flying angry monsters is better than 1.
Last edited by ==Me==; October 30th, 2009 at 17:25.
It's not a struggle. Here, watch me:
They're both Daemon Princes of Tzeentch.
See? No problem. ^_^
The single fiend makes 'me' cry as well, which is why I think you should attach a bloodletter to it and call it a bloodcrusher.
Bloodcrushers are great. Let your opponent shoot them. It means they aren't shooting at your troops and monstrous creatures.
The heralds of Tzeentch are great, but you need to have them ride on a disk or chariot of some sort, and give them bolt. The flamers are also good, and work best in groups of 3.
Pink horrors are fantastic, but I tend to use them in groups of 5 with bolt, as 10 tends to attract a lot of fire from the enemy.
Personally, I'd run 2 units of 20 bloodletters, one in each wave. That will put a LOT of hurt and fear into the enemy. Just be sure to deep strike them VERY carefully, and put an icon in each wave.
As for the daemon princes, I prefer either: winged dp of nurgle with breath, noxious touch, and cloud of flies, OR dp of tzeentch with bolt.
What's really painful to see in your list are all the flesh hounds. I just don't think they're very good. If it were me, I'd try and convert them into something else. What if you (when you have money) got some daemonetes, and with a little conversion, have them ride on the hounds and call them 'seekers of slaanesh'? It's the only fast attack choice really worth it, in my opinion.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; October 30th, 2009 at 19:21.
The flesh hounds are only a couple of boxes of chaos war hounds, so if they only ever sit on the shelf and look pretty its no loss. MOre than money its space for me, I have one 4 tray bag to store stuff in (we had to sell our flat and move the whole contents into my childhood bedrooms, so suggesting throwing away some of the GF's shoes to make space for another bag of miniatures may get me garroted). With cunning use of magnets I may be able to make two disks which I could sit the heralds on, although I don't think chariots would fit. Are disks any good?
What do you do with bloodcrushers other than letting them absorb fire (my last game involved them running towards a unit of shooty termies with a null zone librarian, that was never going to work)
Besides absorbing fire, bloodcrushers are also very effective at assault. They ignore armor saves, have a good WS, great strength (especially on the charge), good toughness, and a 3+ armor save.
They also work well against enemy vehicles that get too close, besides a land raider or monolith. Granted, they have a little trouble reaching distant opponents, but they're a great deterrent which will make your opponent think twice before moving near. Just be sure to keep the units relatively small in size (3-4 is good, and 5 would be the max) as they take up a lot of space.
I'd actually consider Flesh Hounds the best Fast Attack option and a decent substitute for Fiends. They're cheap, fast, and dish out a ton of S5 attacks on the charge. That's enough to force saves and kill some stuff, tear apart light armor, or at least tie stuff down so your killy units (Crushers and Bletters) can close. Karanak just makes them even better.
That's how you get crushers and bletter in, use fast units to engage the enemy and hold them in place. Whittle them down and let the mean stuff finish them. Holding up fast units and knocking out transports is huge for Daemons, get as many units to do that as possible (anything with bolt, Flesh Hounds, Fiends, etc).
Disks let you join units (but then the mobility is wasted, Flamers come in too small units, and Horrors are just meh), but chariots offer better protection and mobility. You can just use the disks as chariots at present. Same goes for the Princes, just "count-as" Tzeentchy (very nice models btw).
I'm not sure how to emote a 'spit take' through the internet, but I assure you, I'm cleaning soda off my screen. ^_^
Flesh hounds are a substitute for fiends?! Fiends are one of the best units in all of 40k, and Flesh hounds, on the other hand, consistently fail to do their job. Their main problems are their inability to deal with MEQ (since they don't have any attacks that ignore armor saves), and a lack of offensive grenades. What good is Karnak's 'move through cover' ability (which he confers to the unit) if you're still striking last in the assault?
There's simply no reason to take them in a chaos daemons army. I guess point for point they're not 'bad', but seekers of slaanesh only cost a couple points more and have rending, more attacks, and offensive grenades. Daemonettes aren't as strong or tough, but they can claim objectives and hold an icon.
Again, I'm not saying they're 'bad', but the Chaos Daemons have far better assault units. I would've put these guys in a codex that actually needs them, like the Tau.
Flesh Hounds don't really need to ignore armor, just dish out lots of hits that wound easily and wait for mop up to show. Seekers are too soft and don't hit hard enough. Rending got nerfed, remember? Flesh Hounds are better at tearing up light vehicles (most things are rear AV10, S5 loves that, S3 rending not so much) and will last long enough thanks to T4 and lower points cost. Easy targets like marines or IG can be dragged down, while nastier stuff has to be held up, and Flesh Hounds do this better.
Fiends are obviously the best, but if you can't get them for some reason Flesh Hounds and charioteer Sheralds will have to suffice.
Last edited by ==Me==; October 30th, 2009 at 21:52.