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IMO, the ability to succesfully take out large numbers of cheap transports is the most important thing to be able to do in 5th edition. And guess what? Daemons aren't very good at it. We have all these wonderful anti-infantry units, and struggle to get at them because our army lacks a decent supply of can openers.
I thought this thread could be a source for any new ideas for anti-transport units, so units that can easily take out AV11 with shooting attacks, and AV10 in CC, what works and what doesn't. It might be preaching to the choir, but it might help you guys out.
2xHearld of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion, Bolt, Gaze - 220pts
This unit is probably best at dealing with transports while keeping the occupants at arms length. It's bolt and gaze hit on 3+, and it has the ability to take out 3+ saves at distance too. We are legion allows it to blow up a rhino and then target the models inside.
I'm torn; I know I should say fiends, but I just can't. They're too good. A unit of 6 throws out a staggering 36 s5 rending hits. They're quick enough to keep up with transports too, which is useful. The main problem is that everyone knows how dangerous they are, and targets them as such.
How useful is rending against av10? Against an AV10 target we need a six to penertrate anyway, so rending becomes useless. 36 s5 attacks on a stationary target should result in 6 pens and 6 glances, against a target that moved less than 6" you should get 3 pens and 3 glances, and against a target that moved over 6", 1 pen and 1 glance.
You get the exact same results with flesh hounds.
For the price of 6 fiends you can get 9 flesh hounds w/karnak, or 12 flesh hounds. They are both beasts, so have the same movement, and are more maneverable with Karnak as they can move through cover. They get s5 on the charge, and they will be considered less of a threat then fiends, especially if you have fiends on the board. Fiends have more important tasks, and taking out a rhino seems a bit of a waste.
My CC MVP against transports is therefore 5-12xFlesh Hounds.
This one is a toss up; either a DP of tzeentch w/ Bolt and Might, or a Soul Grinder w/phlegm. The soul grinder vs. DP argument has raged on for long enough, and there's really not much between them. I prefer the dp for the model.
Chime in with your ideas.
Last edited by Mathlete; December 14th, 2009 at 13:21.
Yep, Flesh Hounds are pretty good at opening up AV10 rear armor. What makes Fiends win out, though, is their ability to not just nail armor, but also mess up pretty much any infantry that jumps out of said tank. They've got flexibility. Flesh Hounds are ==My== #2 cavalry unit in the book though, very nice and they don't even compete with Fiends since they are in the Fast Attack section that is populated by failure anyway.
For the DP vs. Grinder, I pick the DP. His weapon is reliable and AP1. The Grinder has to scatter with BS3 and phlegm isn't ordnance so Bolt is better in every way against armor. In assault, the Grinder has the edge thanks to fleet and S10 though.
You can also toss in the Slaanesh Herald on a chariot with unholy might. She gets a good number of S5 rending attacks on the charge and ends up basically another units of Fiends.
Flamers and Seekers get an honorable mention. Flamers with bolt are a good mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry and speed, if a bit fragile. Seekers are hurt bad by S3, but massed rending could maybe work something out considering how many attacks they have.
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It's true that fiends are better, but I find that they're being shot at so regularly, that a few small-mid size units of flesh hounds slip under the radar.
I used to be a proponent of using flamers with bolt, but my last couple of games I've really gone against it. You turn an awesome but fragile infantry killer into a mediocre tank killer. I'd rather just hold them back and suicide them into a unit after the tank goes down by other means.
For shooting tanks/vehicles, 'bolt' is definitely the way to go, so the question becomes: what's the best unit to attach 'bolt' to?
The 4 most cost effective are:
Herald chariots w/bolt, MoS, and (arguably optional) We are Legion
3 Flamers w/bolt
5 Pink Horrors w/bolt
Daemon Prince w/mark of Tzeentch, bolt
I'm not a fan of flamers with bolt, because you're giving up two things when you use it: their fantastic breath attacks, and more importantly, the other elite choices. Fiends and bloodcrushers are more important, in my opinion, than flamers, which is why I usually don't use them.
Pink horrors are good, but they're objective grabbers first and anti-tank second.
The best unit is a toss up between the Therald and DP...and I have to give it to the Therald. It's just far better at getting within range, and finding the vehicles weak side.
For assaulting vehicles, my personal favorite is definitely the Keeper of Secrets. Fiends come a close second, but I've found that the Keeper is far more likely to survive after plunging into the enemy lines, and their more suited for trashing distant enemy vehicles. Fiends are overkill, and vulnerable to counterattack.
Flesh hounds as anti-transport? I generally don't use flesh hounds, and found them to be underwhelming, but I have to admit, I've never tried using them for that task. I'll have to give it a try.
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