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  1. #1
    Member Brymm's Avatar
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    Bikers and Daemon Bombs

    I was wondering if anyone has used Bikes with Icons as a means to summon daemons in far-off places now that the daemons are generic and use deep strike rules. I have been tempted to try this but haven't really had a chance yet.
    Also, has anyone tried a daemon heavy army? Any luck?
    Thanks!


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  3. #2
    Dei
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    For 2pts you get a Chaos Marine, honestly they're not worth it. Their pros don't outweigh their cons if you ask me. Summoning a Greater Daemon from the sarge might work better though.

    Overall the work and overall cost for the delivery method is not worth it, which is a real shame since the models are nice.
    "Luck often enough, will save a man, if his courage hold".

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    Member Brymm's Avatar
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    Would a greater daemon really be better?
    - can't capture objectives
    - they kill your expensive biker champion

    The lesser daemons:
    - can be tailored to points availible easier
    -doesn't kill the champion
    - can capture objectives

    I see what you mean about the points for a CSM instead. But, the daemons fight like a CSM in cc, cost a little less (actually significantly less because you don't buy upgrades), deep strike without scattering (limited near a icon though) and tend to deal with PFs and PWs better.
    I just can picture them doing really well being summoned by a Plague squad in a rhino and charging after they get rapid fired. Or better yet, having the bikes drive by flamer or melta some stuff while the daemons they summoned charge a heavy weapons squad or something.
    Plus the new bloodletters look sweet!

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    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brymm View Post
    But, the daemons fight like a CSM in cc, cost a little less (actually significantly less because you don't buy upgrades)
    Here is one of the hidden advantages to Lesser Daemons. Most people compare their cost to the base expense of a CSM, which, as you said, isn't exactly accurate. I mean, nobody in their right mind takes CSMs without upgrades. Once you consider that a ten man CSM squad with dual specials, a fisting champion, and a rhino costs 255-265 points, then the comparison actually looks more favorable for Lesser Daemons. For that cost, you can purchase 19 of the little guys. Not a bad deal at all.

    Greater Daemons: He's a master of close combat, no doubt. A skilled Chaos player shouldn't have to worry about summoning him prematurely, so long as he/she can get a champion into enemy territory. With rhinos, bikes, chosen, raptors, etc, that's not too hard to do.

    For the price, it's most cost-effective to bring your Greater Daemon onto the board via a Chosen champion. Bikes are expensive, which is why I tend to avoid them for the purposes of a host. Although, you could always take a min/max bike squad with dual meltas and a champion without upgrades, which would allow the bikers to continue killing tanks at range, while their champion transcends the physical plane for the mutations of a Greater Daemon.
    Spambot kill tally. . .337

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    Member Brymm's Avatar
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    great advice

    Wonderful advice Rabbit.

    What about doing the min/max bike squad and putting the icon on a melta bike... then summoning both lesser daemons AND a greater daemon? Seems like the suprise factor could be there after the lesser daemons hit and the bikes keep going, won't they be suprised to see the big one next turn. The bikes would be the gift that keeps on giving!
    Do the bikes tend to do better as tank hunters with the melta set up or as troop hunters with flamers?
    Lastly, small squads of beasties to help make sure you get a squad the turn you need em? Or a larger squad for a bigger UMPF?

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    Senior Member Intrepid's Avatar
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    What about doing the min/max bike squad and putting the icon on a melta bike... then summoning both lesser daemons AND a greater daemon?
    Assuming you intend to bring a 6-bike unit, that's only four ablative wounds on a high-threat unit that will be far away from friendlies. Either the bike squad will be too far from enemies to make good use of summoning or they'll be cut down by massed fire...I can't see it working well.


    I think lesser daemons would be used much more often if they filled actual troop slots. As it is, by the time you bring 2-3 Marine squads you don't have much additional need for ordinary, MEQ-stat models. All-daemon troops would make for some interesting army builds. Then again, after the daemon bomb fiascoes of last Codex I can see GW overcompensating a little.

    They would also be much more useful if they waited at least two turns to come in. Chaos armies have trouble getting past the enemy's front lines; by the time a deepstriking unit or Rhino get in position, they're often too late to summon.
    "My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard

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    Senior Member Nhyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid View Post
    All-daemon troops would make for some interesting army builds. Then again, after the daemon bomb fiascoes of last Codex I can see GW overcompensating a little.
    Using just demon troops to hold objectives would be horrible, unless there was HEAVY cover, they would get shot to hell, or drawn off the objective to defend it.


    I normally use a rhino, pop smoke, turn 2 (with the roll, of course) get the lesser demons out and tarpit a unit (or wipe them, depending on who im fighting), then drive on by with the rhino for a turn 3 greater demon summon.

    One of the good things about the greater demon, while they're not as good as they used to be, they are still INTIMDATING to an opponent, and if left unchecked, they can do a ton of damage.
    Though, it might help I use the forgeworld great unclean one as my greater demon :-P
    Yes, I did deep-strike your sister...
    Necrons : W-8 D-3 L-7 (Sleeping in their TombFoam, waiting for a new codex)
    Chaos Forces (CSM/CD): W-42 D-19 L-28
    Apocalypse Games : W-4 D-0 L-1 (4 Titans, Brass Scorp, 3 Baneblades, 2 Bombers, 3 Fighters, and a Partrage in a Pear Tree)

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    Dei
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    The thing is, what do you want them to do?

    They're not very flexible (has to be summoned within an icon and no customization options, grenades or ranged weapons), can't ride any transports (and thus a bit on the slow side), not very tough (they die easily against small arms fire, amongst other things), you often waste other units movement and points on simply acting as a delivery service (more expensive and troublesome than a rhino) and the list goes on.

    Unless you have a specific purpose in mind and build your list with that in mind, I just don't see how they'd be worth your points and trouble, the lure of cheapness is a common trap, sadly.
    "Luck often enough, will save a man, if his courage hold".

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    Member Dave the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nhyx View Post
    I normally use a rhino, pop smoke, turn 2 (with the roll, of course) get the lesser demons out and tarpit a unit (or wipe them, depending on who im fighting), then drive on by with the rhino for a turn 3 greater demon summon.
    I use Lesser Daemons in a similar fashion. They're really best supporting a CSM squad directly; summoned off the Rhino, or the squad once they've disembarked (depending on when you get the DS roll), and tar-pitting a unit (hopefully after the CSM get some shots off) while the CSM camp an objective, or get some special weapons directed at other pressing targets.

    Lesser Daemons off bikes can work ... but you better have a fast list all around, or they'll get shot to pieces, and accomplish nothing.

  11. #10
    Member Brymm's Avatar
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    I think a lot of chaos players overlook a big change in this last codex:
    The lack of a cheap troop.
    The lesser daemon in a round about way can fill this slot. For objective missions with 5 objectives, these little goons can scamper to that one that's placed in that area terrian behind the building away from the battle.
    Also, with so many lists using just 2-3 squads of plague marines, these guys can swell those "troops" ranks, making your enemy have to deal with more than your rotten men.

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