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Hey guys, quick question.
Played a daemon player last night who ran a DP with MoT, MoS and 3xGaze. I obviously questioned this, but his response was simply "Where does it say that I can't do it?" I looked through my codex and the rule book and could find nothing in the rules against it; however it didn't seem right. Any ideas?
This isn't Warhammer Fantasy. There is no rule preventing taking duplicates of any weapon (and even in Fantasy, Daemons ignore that rule)
On page 73 in the Daemonic Gifts intro, it says that the Gifts "are equivalent to the weapons and other wargear used by mere mortals" - which I'm pretty sure means duplicates are usually not allowed.
How on earth did he give his DP MoT & MoS? you can only have one mark...and as for the 3x Gaze....the entry says any model that doesn't have the MoK can have one of[the options listed] (but models with MoT can have up to 2). So even if you were allowed to combine different Marks on the one model, he could still only have two lots of Gaze at most.
Quite simply he's an idiot
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I'm pretty sure MoS is Master of Sorcery, not Mark of Slaanesh
Also you can ignore post, i aparently was thinking in WHRB terms on weapon duplicates, not what is the actual question
You can't take duplicates on the same model
ok, clearly some confusion.
The dp he played was; DP w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, 3xGaze. The gift section gaze is placed under says that dp's of tzeentch may take two of these, which I took to mean two of these powers period, so boon and gaze would equal two. I could've argued that it also meant two of these choices period, so gazex2 would be the maximum you could take. However, I couldn't find anywhere that said you couldn't take the same gift more than once. Crownaxe, could you tell me where you're that it couldn't be done from; I'd personally love to run a dp of tzeentch with 2xgaze and bolt.
I agree with the consensus. I've never, ever heard of anyone being able to take the same power more than once. If they could, it certainly would've come up by now. A power isn't a weapon, it's an ability they either have or don't have. It'd be like claiming you could take ironhide multiple times, and get a 3+ armor save for each one you bought, taking multiple saves for each wound. 40k doesn't work that way, and he'd certainly have to present a rule that said he can, rather than he can't.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the rules don't work by exception. The books would be 1000 pages long if they had to include everything you weren't allowed to do. Instead, they list what you can do, and then exceptions within the rules.
Next time he tries, just push him over, take all his models, and declare yourself winner. If he complains, then ask him to point out where in the rulebook it says you can't push your opponent over, take his models, and declare yourself the winner. ^_^
A power isn't a weapon, it's an ability they either have or don't have.
The problem is that powers are weapons, in that they're considered weapons/wargear; this is explicitly stated in the codex. Powers = other races wargear. Now you could buy mulitple 3+ saves, but you couldn't use them as the rule book states that you can only use one saving throw, be it normal, inv. or cover. But you could buy 2 soul devourers to get an extra attack from having 2xccw. This is within the standard rules.
Other monsterous cretures can buy multiples of the same shooting weapon; carnifex's can have two venom cannons, giving them two venom cannons worth of shots, while wraithlords can double up on weapons to make them twin linked. While you may have never heard of anyone doing this with a DP, there isn't anything within either the codex or the rule book that states that you can't buy multiples of the same power. It's not even really a loop hole, as it is consitent with the way other MCs are built in other codexs.
As far as I see, it only really applies in the following examples;
Unholy Might (there's nothing stoping you spending the points to make your DP s10 )
Soul Devourer (you can buy up to two ccw)
Bolt of Tzeentch (with Master of sorcery you could use three a turn, or two as normal)
Death Strike (A khorne DP can fire twice)
Aura of Decay (A nurgle DP can fire twice)
Boon/Breath/Gaze (But only if you are a Tzeentch DP, and can only be brought twice)
Pavene cannot be used on the same unit twice, so thats out, and the rest of the things have singular effects. The only grey area is Noxious Touch (it's not explicitly stated as being a seperate weapon, rather an upgrade to an exsisting weapon).
The way I see, we've all assumed that powers can only be brought once, but until a FAQ states otherwise this simply isn't the case. And it makes DP's much more competitive; a DP w/ MoT, 2xSoul Devourer, Might, 2xGaze is a monster against most things and comes in at under 200pts.
Stacking weapons is not universal. For example, the tau don't get twice the shots from a weapon by having two on a battlesuit. It just becomes twin linked.
I'll have to re-read the codex to see if the powers count as weapons, but in any case, I've never seen any instance where anyone ever claimed in a competitive setting that you could double or triple up on the daemonic upgrades. You generally can't do that in other codexes, and as far as I can see, you would need a rule in the codex specifically saying you could.
I'll re-read the codex when I have the chance (probably over my lunch break) to give a more thorough answer.
Wow,, this is news to me.. thats thinking outside the box. I concure that a DP could take Gaze twice. Monstrous creatures just have the great ability to fire two weapons. It never states that those weapons have to be different or the same. Tau Bsuits have a specific rule kick in when two weapons are taken.
Looking at the marine codex as well, I see no reason why a space marine sergeant could not trade in his bolter and pistol for two plasma pistols, or any other 2 combinations. (although he would not be able to fire them at the same time.) I don't know if this is done with any frequency as I don't play marines. He would be able to get the benifits of two power fists, however its expensive.
When a weapon is limited to a single weapon or single option it is usually listed as such. I havn't found any such limitations as of my searchings yet.
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All of shooting attacks are considered ranged weapons, so i say no dupliating on those at least