Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I'm getting a little tired of constantly being slaughtered by all the fancy new things in the codex releases that are coming out.
And the go with chaos marines seems to always be the same.
1. Take a lash prince or two
2. Either defilers or obliterators
3. plague marines
Is this the only way that a competitive list can be made because these things don't fit into the plan I had. Surely we should of been giving options that work without us reverting to the same old combos over and over again?
I want to run a troop heavy list but can't as numbers and long range will always be better than what I can do without defilers and oblits.
Can't run a ranged dread because he will blow his mates up.
So I guess I'm asking whether it is worth continuing me using this codex on the off chance I can win by pure luck or against a badly-written list. It seems other races have so many great options through their entire army there is never just one "must-have" unit and this is wearing my patience thin to be honest.
First allow me to place a disclaimer, while I try not to whine too much about our Codex, this might be a little close, so, for those tired of such threads, I apologize. I understand and have been trying to be more positive and simply to try and roll with the change lately, but even so. Just saying.
Now for duane, my condolences about your frustrations, I share many of the same concerns. Although I don't play in tournaments, I too believe that the current codex forces 4-5 key units upon every general who wishes to be taken seriously. Lately, I've been looking for a new army, even thinking of switching over to Fantasy because I'm not sure I like where our codex is, nor am I paticularly comfortable with some of the new codices. I feel that Space Wolves, as a recent example, are quite simply superior to our regular troopers, they have all the same weapon options as well as some new ones that are even better - Frostblades and an extra special CCW guy with Rending.
As for what I use personally, well, I'm no tournament go-er, so, take this with a grain of salt. The only list I have (aside from anything that involves Lash, Obliterators and lots of pie plates) is (and who decided they were pie plates anyway?) running what my regular opponent recently dubbed my "Armored Spearhead" list. This is similar to IronAngel's regular list and if I recall he has some tournament experience or some-the-like and perhaps could give you more/better reassurance. However I have found it to be very successful, I don't think I've lost with it yet by chance, just draws or wins (don't take that as a serious brag,I'm not an uber tactical beast). My list runs akin to the following:
Daemon Prince (Tzneentch monster w/Warptime and Wind if it's a larger game, if not just Warptime)
[This is typical, but our other HQ's are weak sauce IMO]
2-3 Dreadnoughts (game size depending) - Usually toting Missile Launchers and Heavy Flamers (if extra points) - if they frenzy, simply make sure that something armored is around and use the Frag (small template) missile, two low Str shots won't hurt a Rhino or another Dreadnought. If hitting AV 11 the Heavy Flamer *could* do some damage but chances are slim and if you're afraid then don't bring the HF. Rabbit likes the ML because they can (when following your orders anyway) target those lower level AV targets like Rhinos so our other Heavy Support options can concentrate on what they need to be doing. I like this configuration because my Dreadnoughts seem to think team-killing is hilarious, so I make sure they can't, at least not well.
It's a little shady, but I think even with the Heavy Flamer you can just hit one guy during a Fire Frenzy, I don't believe anything says you must hit as many models as possible (but I could be wrong). Also, remember the Dreadnought can only see in a 180* firing arc, he cannot see what is behind him. Fire Frenzy says he pivots towards the "nearest visible" unit. Keep that in mind. Stick these guys out front if you're bringing weapons on them that can actually "kill."
But the hard truth is, No, you cannot run a ranged HS-style support Dreadnought. Not well anyway. These fellows are better at CC, so use them for it.
3x CSM - Meltaguns (x2 ), Fist Champ, Icon of Glory, Rhino - These guys have Meltas to cover for the lack of ranged AT in this list.
Squad of 7-10 Berzerkers - Fist, Rhino - size varies based on game size. I don't believe the Berzerkers are necessary, just a bit flavorful, you could probably switch these out for another cult troops of your choice if you're looking for something interesting, keep things fresh, etc. But obviously, if you're bringing the dudes in (blood) red then have them head straight for the enemy.
No Fast Attack (more weaksauce/overcosted options)
2x Defilers (all DCCW's) - I know you're looking for a list without Defilers, and I'm sorry this isn't one, but on the whole, this list doesn't rely on Lash or Cult troops to win the day, and I think that's always a good thing to see.
Predator - Auto/Las - not the greatest for long ranged AT, however, this can help alleviate the list's lack of said ability. Another Defiler would help with the Chaos, but I wouldn't want to rely solely on Meltaguns for AT. And you'd be surprised at how long these things will live when there are so many other much scarier targets around for the enemy to shoot at.
Now again, I know this doesn't match your desires exactly, but it's the most competitive thing I can make up without resorting to lame stuffs that everyone uses (everyone used with salt, please withold objections). I also think this list is a lot of fun to play, even just for fun, it's great to have so many big robots running around causing problems and scaring opponents, between 3 Dreds, 2 Defilers, and 1 anrgy DP things can get pretty hectic. And let's not forget those Rhinos!
Anyway, back on topic here, sorry, I typed a lot....
In truth, I see little for us to do. I see the Chaos codex much like a funnel, in that there is a central "track" that most generals must take in order to compete against the best armies and generals. Now of course, other variant lists can still win, and often do in many gaming clubs and friendly matches, not all Warhammer is theory and number crunching. Skill can sometimes overcome math, luck, and terrain. But I do believe there is a...trend one must follow.
(Insert long rant about loss and true Legion armies, inability to realistically emulate Non-Cult Legions, etc. etc.)
Now, all that ranting, whining, crying aside. I share your pain brother-man. However, I saw a post the other day that I believe is quite true in many respects, and bears repeating:
(Replace Wood Elves with Chaos Codex or whatever)
The choice is yours. (For me personally, I think I'll try some Fantasy demo games and see where that goes)
I hope you'll all forgive me for such a long and exhaustive whine session. Thanks for reading if you did.
Last edited by hotspike18; February 14th, 2010 at 15:53.
Nicely put, hotspike (though a bit long ). I'll highlight the same thing: competitive options are always limited.
Once you choose your army's general strategy you are limited to what is accepted as "optimal units" for that strategy in competitive play.
Can you have a swarm-type competitive CSM army? I don't think so, because that strategy are not very appealing due to our unit choices.
Can you have a mechanized Tyranids army? No, because the choice doesn't even exist.
Can you have a shooty Tyranids army without dakka-flex? No, because it's the optimal choice for that strategy.
Ever saw a competitive Tau list without Hammerheads or XV8's? No, because it's the optimal choice for the strategy that army is the best at.
Each army is better at certain strategies, thus your choices are inherently limited by the army you choose.
In non-competitive play you can take any army and make it do anything (swarm CSM!) and be successful (have fun that is) but competitive play restricts you to a handful of strategies suitable to your army, thus a handful of units.
Most games revolve around a "rock-paper-scissor" system that becomes very apparent once you go competitive. Be thankful that 40k is different in that regard and gives us so many viable choices/so much room for customization (talking about the game, not a specific army).
Now the question would be: what are the viable strategies for a competitive CSM army? If you have only one then start thinking about switching to another army for more options. If you have 2 or more, you won't find much better as this is what competition are about.
Which new armies are giving you the most trouble? If it's all of them you just need to switch your strategy, not drop Chaos altogether. So far the only new(ish) codex I had trouble with was IG and that was just the first few times I've played it (and I didn't change my entire list just tweaked it a bit). You can play competetive Chaos without taking a lash prince (or warptime nurgle prince if you want to add those powerhouses to the "must have" mix). I play a very fluffy World Eaters army and so far I've decimated SW every time I played them, including right after the new codex came out, I've yet to lose against the new nids (right now I'm equal in wins and draws at 3 a piece) and like I said, had trouble against IG at first but have adapted my strats and am doing fairly well now. Yes, I have had to tweak my army every once in a while when I notice no matter what strat I use against particular units I keep losing, but I have yet to change the fluff of my army by adding a lash prince. All in all, don't give up on CSM if you're losing to a newer codex, just adapt to them, because like Vespasian was saying in his fantasy post that Hotspike put up, change keeps this game from getting stagnant.
For 3.5 to 4th i had to make a significant number of changes to my Night lord list, 1/2 was dumped (Bikes , furies , dread , Chaos lord ) because the newer version made them obsolete, or at least a detriment (Liability) to gaming . Nothing worst than having your lord impale himself on his daemonic sword , your dreadnought shoot your own troops and your bike costing 13.2 % more than your opponents to throw a stick in your plans.
Some , included my self, modified their lists to accommodate the new changes. But then 5th edition hit, and i had to dump 1/2 of my list again : 1ksons , Noise marines and some terminator (though they are still , arguably, good) . 4+ cover saves meant that these 2 units would not be able to perform their primary functions adequately, not enough to justify their costs anyways. Furthermore the new Vehicle damage chart and cover save pigeonholed the terminator to a deep striker unit.
What did Chaos players gain from the latest editions ? Nothing. If you played Undivided, Khorn or Nurgle, it wasn't half bad. If you played anything else however, the changes made were too drastic. But it gets worst.
Every other codex since then have had some new toys that chips away at the last bastion of chaos: Vanilla marines got Stern Guards , with more flexible fire power than both 1ksons and Noise, they're scoring with Kantor and have comparable Cc to Chaos marine. They got telion to take down your precious squad leader , banner carriers, special weapon guys. A host of devastating weapons to melt your troops and vehicles.
What did the Wolf get? Better Psyker (WTF?), better anti-psychic abilities. Better troops , better Cc. By consequence The chaos edge on the battle field that revolved around that is not such a defining element anymore. They represent chaos even better, you could make a functional and original Tzeencth or Khorn list with that book.
What about the guards ? Well ...I'm not sure about those. Not a lot of guard players in my area (Actually we have a few of them now, but i haven't seen a lot of the new codex to make an opinion about them).
What about the Nids and the new Blood angels? Well the tyranids just got a ton of new psychic abilities that makes a mockery of ours and they got plenty ways to disrupt our psykers as well . I'm not even gonna mention Close combat , heck it looks like they're out shooting us as well .Not to mention that ... They have drop pods ! Freaking drop pods. And the Blood angels , well if 1/2 of the rumors are true , i wouldn't even bother.
In contrast the Vanilla codex gets a new shine every time some new codex is release: For example the Nid codex made me think that Astarte grenade launders aren't 1/2 bad on scout bike , plus the land mines are a good deterrent against the nids "terrain' deep strikes. Plus the Stern guards are even more valuable now; Wounds on 2+ and denying cover save rounds will make a mockery of the nids!
I think Hotspike made a good point , but i don't think it applies to chaos.
Change is good , but drastic changes aren't. I have 2 armies at the moment : Chaos (Now Loyalists) and Necrons. And while the Necron haven't had an update in 10 years , they ended up being a better investment of time, money and hours of hobbying than Chaos. Because at least i get good millage out of Crons. If it were the case that i only needed to modify 1 or 2 units in my chaos list to have something interesting , then it would be an other story. But now I'm busy with work , with friends, with my apartment (Hopefully a house soon!) , with my conditioning, with my online studies, to give more time to an army that is in this bad a shape.
Incidentally , I'm getting the most out of my Nigh lord list (And part of what i got for the 4th edition) with the vanilla marines. The furies are being replaced by scouts, everything else is a "count-as' ... that's about it.
Last edited by seismic; February 14th, 2010 at 18:14.
"The things that appear are a vision of the unseen"
-Anaxagoras of Clazomenae
So I started taking melta guns, but the guys carrying love to trip and miss or shoot the non-essentials of tanks and find snake eyes hilarious. (yet to be useful, besides melting a marine or two)
Flamers HAVE to target as many units as possible, written in the rule book, no matter who you are shooting at.
Even the trend isn't working for me though, I've been branching out to try other things and that isn't working either. I've considered the new dice thing as a bit of a superstisious off-chance it works because of mind over matter.
I never got a chance to play with the last edition of the chaos codex but I guess it's a good thing as it would probably make me twice as sour. I want things like multi meltas that don't have to be mounted on ugly guys that drop from the sky. I want to be able to have units that can re-roll or other cool stuff because they have a guy in there that is just totally Chuck Norris. I want anti-psyker powers or the ability to cast some truely devastating stuff (lash doesn't work when my defiler scatters 9" the turn I need him, and having two doesn't increase the chances of a direct hit for me)
I guess I'm off on a bit of a tangent right now. Thanks for the words guys! Has been a good read.
You guys are shaking down the chaos dex way too much here. There is a huge difference between "getting slaughtered by every new codex" and learning to adapt to the changing 40k scene. I myself run a chaos army, a nid army since 4th edition, and a working imperial fist army for about 3 years. I have pretty good results with all of them, because I recognize what works and what does not in the newest editions.
I definitely believe that first and foremost you should choose an army because it appeals to you, not because it is going to win for you 100% (Space Wolves players). I decided to make a chaos army because I fell in love with the Daemon Princes. I chose to do a nid army because of how cool the new plastic carnifex looked. And I chose Imperial Fists because Lysander is one of the best looking marine special characters with the coolest fluff.
Moving on, not to rag you guys but I have had pretty good luck in large point games against new nids and IG with my chaos army. I run a nurgle/ khorne list because I love the conversion room, and becase they are fluff compatible. I mechanize them because it makes sense, and I run defilers because they are intimidating beasts.
Against nids, my battle cannon demolishes troops and even some MCs. Then in CC my berzerkers can certainly compete with genestealers and hormagaunts. IG are fodder for plague marines, as their toughness keeps them alive to rhino rush across the field and dominate.
This is not to say that I don't agree withh some overpowering in new codices (Space Wolves Codex is most likely the cheesiest thing ever), but for the most part, it is manageable. Please do not give up on chaos, as there is still some blood left for the blood god!
If we're going to make a fair comparison between the Chaos codex and any other, it has to be Orks since they both came out around the same time and both before the new rule book. Outside of the fact that yes, they have a couple of HQs that can take elites, fast attacks or heavies as troops (which outside of Wazdakka Gutsmek really doesn't add or change any fluff) it is very much the same. In order to pop tanks or troop kill more successfully, they need to pay for their gear (and more so than we do) and they also seem to have a unit that's very much a competetive staple in Nob Bikers.
But on the up side, I appreciate the effort in trying to salvage our love for Chaos.
Alot of times adding a little flair to your list throws unexpected monkey wrenches into an enemy plans.
Lately, I've been playing a "demon bomb" list (2000-2500 point range), where I have 3-5 squads of lesser demons. It's a very fun list to play, and my opponents freak out and don't know what to do when 30-50 demons hit the table and charge their units. I've even had a few games where I got some lucky reserve rolls and got all 5 squads of lesser demons out in turn 2 off my flat out popped smoke rhino, right into the enemy lines. The game was over by the 1st half of turn 4.
Yes, I did deep-strike your sister...
Necrons : W-8 D-3 L-7 (Sleeping in their TombFoam, waiting for a new codex)
Chaos Forces (CSM/CD): W-42 D-19 L-28
Apocalypse Games : W-4 D-0 L-1 (4 Titans, Brass Scorp, 3 Baneblades, 2 Bombers, 3 Fighters, and a Partrage in a Pear Tree)