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These guys are super sick! 2+/3+??? How do you deal with these guys? I played a guy (2000 pts.) last night who runs 2 squads of ten termies with thunder hammers and storm shields. One had a librarian and the other had Shrike! ...so they fleet! This is crazy! He plowed right through my army of 7 bikes, 2 squads of 7 raptors, 2 squads of 2 oblits, a vindicator, 2 squads of 10 csm, 8 lesser daemons, and my lord with lightning claws, jump pack and MoK.
I tried the usual tactic of killing termies ( lots of shots: make him roll dice) but I only ended up killing the squad with the librarian and Shrike (who left his unit of ten termies to finish off my raptors.... side note: he was instant killed in close combat by 2 oblits.. moral victory hehe..). Anyway... wtf?! There are 2 guys that run this list in our league.. and an 1850 point tourny is coming up... please help!
Avoid them - they may have fleet, but if they can't catch you they don't get to assault. So mech up, and keep moving! Bikes would work well against them, as they can move 12" and still shoot, plus they can churn out some fire.
Take a lash prince or two and shunt them into a corner for the whole game (though watch for the libby's hood)
The dual Lash DP idea has serious posiblities. With what you have listed as your army, that is certainly a tough nut to crack, and I feel your pain. I can't come up with any brilliant tactics. If you can vary your list, there are a few other options.
There are better generals than me on this forum, but what I would try would be to hit them in layers. That is an enormous amount of points being tied up in two huge, albeit very nasty units, so it is not as if you won't know where they are going. Keep a few mobile nasties of your own ready for the pursuit. If you can shoot them while they are coming to you, great, of course.
The general theory is that templates are your friend, and MoK gets you extra hits with initiative, hopefully taking out another model or 2 before they hit back. You could of course try MoTz, hoping the 5+ invuln saves you a few models, but I never have much luck with that myself. Your DP mentioned below could be Lash to group them nicely for roasting. Winds of Chaos is another template, and could be considered on your DP. Warptime is another option.
First layer is run a Land Raider full of 10 Havocs into them, 4 with flamers, the champ with combi flamer and PF, with a MoK on the unit. You could of course use Chosen if your heavy slots are spoken for. The flamers will add up to a whole bunch of wounds, then you have initiative (except the PF champ) + 4 attacks each on the charge. You could even support with a winged DP with Warptime if conditions work out OK. Eternal Warrior helps you with the DP. Or try to support with 6 to 8 Raptors, 2 with flamers, champ with Dual LCs, MoK.
If you can manage to support with winged DP or Raptors, then unless the dice gods hate you, you should be at least in a fair fight. The Librarian may stop the WarpTime, but if you get it off, the DP can take down some of those extra models and keep the kick back down to a lower if still painful level.
Even supposing you can't support immediately, you have probably taken out 5 of them. Your Havocs/Chosen die. While happily blasting away with the LR, bring on wave 2. This would be the winged DP and/or Raptors with flamers and MoK and Dual LC champ.
If my brain is working correctly, if you add up the huge wad of points your opponent sunk into his two mega-wunder-stompers, you can afford 2 LRs, 2 sets of template-happy doom, 2 winged DPs, and 2 sets of Raptors.
I like the idea of shoot and run from bikes that was previously mentioned, because I like bikes and any kind of movement. They are points heavy, though, so they would be a good support choice to harass before you pounce, and after, if things don't go well. They can't mix it up in combat with TH/SS termies, though, point for point, so use them from a distance.
Besides this, 3 Vindicators might work, maybe along with Lash to group them nicely. Lots of template action there, and they'd have to fail 3+ eventually. I just don't have as much luck with landing Vindicator shots and then avoiding someone with a TH smashing my 10AV rear armor in CC. So, I'd go with template toting troops.
I just did some quick math hammer, and according to my calculations if you took 10 Chaos termies with dual LCs, and gave them MoK, even if the TH/SS termies got the charge, you would come out ahead.So, dice gods willing, just fight fire with fire. Put a DP rolling alongside your 10 strong dual LC termie units, and roll them up the field, and laugh all the way. You have initiative and strike first, and with the extra attack of the MoK, plus the re-roll to wound of the dual LC, even with their 3+ vs your 5+, you should win.Hope my math is right, but I did it twice, and came out fine both times. I think a DP of almost any flavor trumps Shrike and a Librarian. Let Shrike fleet as fast as he wants. Just roast marshmellows and wait for the charge.Being a nutcase, I would be tempted to bring Gift of Chaos on my DPs and try to turn Shrike into a Spawn, just for the sheer joy of it. Who cares if it is a "waste of points" according to math hammer. Even if it only worked once every three games, it'd be worth it.
I would be tempted to try Noise Marines of all the cult troops choices you could use. I personally use either all Plague Marines or all regular Chaos Marines, while occasionally fielding a small Noise Marine squad. A little math hammer plus some smart tactics seem like it would allow you to put a hurt on those guys, even with their extended mobility.You have to figure that the Noise Marines can move and then fire a full 24" with two shots a piece. If you happen to be a carpenter and can measure distances pretty accurately, you can stay out of charge range forever while laying down massive fire.
An 8 man squad using a Blastermaster and 7 Sonic Blasters would, while on the move, fire 14 Str 4 shots and 3 Str 5 shots.9.24 hits2 hits 5.94 woundsabout 1 kill
Well, maybe that's not so hot!But if you stopped for a turn, fire on heavy:21 str 4 shotsBlast13.86 hitsabout 3 hits6.93 wounds2.5 wounds1.99 kills
Next turn shoot assualty, kill 1 more, then charge!
CHARGE!24 attacks at I 5!12 hits!6 wounds!1 kill!
That's five dead Terminators with some creative moving prior to them getting to swing a hammer. You could safely tack on one more kill if you ran a Champion with a Power Weapon. Or even more if you Doom Siren'ed them.
Keep in mind too that this is only one unit dedicated to fighting this massive unit of death machines that probably costs half an army. It would be safe to say that you should be able to toss some Heavy support fire on the Terminators also, perhaps forcing a lot more 3+ saves instead of 2+ saves. Obliterators with Plasma Cannons or rapid-fired twin-linked Plasma Guns come to mind.
Perhaps a 10 man Chaos Space Marine Squad using dual Plasmas might have more success shooting, but can't do the move/shoot/charge nearly as effective as Noise Marines. And to get the most out of that, you need to rapid fire. And we all know that if you can rapid fire, you can be charged. And if you are charged, you are probably dead.
Last edited by Brymm; April 1st, 2010 at 13:19. Reason: Spacing got all crazy
"Men attract not what they want but instead what they are."
Thanks guys! Yeah I've been messing around with the idea of using noise marines for a while, even though people say they arn't worth the points. Here's what I came up with:
Lash Blast (Vindicator, Defilar, 3 oblilts, Sorcerer with lash and DP with lash)
and 10 Noise marines: doom siren, PW, 9 sonic blasters, a blast master.
Then fill in the blanks with CSM, raptors and Bikes.
Taking all of your guy's advice, this shouild put a sick hurting on those freaking termies.
Let's optimize this idea -
Noise Marines should be run in groups of 5, four Sonic Blasters and a Blastmaster. (you get more Blastmasters this way.) In your case, DO NOT take the Siren or the power weapon, because if you ever get these guys in CC, or even close enough to use the Siren, you have completely screwed up. Noise marines are all about dancing around their targets and shooting, never allowing themselves to get charged.
Bikes and Raptors are both good units, but they cost too many points in our Codex. I suggest that you run only one unit of each. I really like a 8-man Raptor unit, Champ with dual Claws, 2 melta and Mark of Khorne. It's the sweet spot of the unit.
Bikes should be a min/max unit with 2 meltas, combi-melta on the champ and a icon for summoning, OR seven guys, to give it lots of durability. The second option is really expensive for it's usefulness.
My opinion on Chaos Marines (as your rank and file troops) is either of these 2 builds -
10 CSM, Champ w/Fist, 2 identical special weapons, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino OR
5 Plague Marines, Champ w/Fist, 2 identical special weapons, Rhino.
The 5 plaguers build is expensive for what seems to be a Tac Squad, but it really, really works well on the table.
Also, remember that you can make a silly-powerful build of Terminators with our Codex... As previously mentioned, a bunch of Termies with dual claws will still hit the thundershield guys first, even when charged, and do a bunch of wounds. If you want to get silly, make them all Champions and give the unit Mark of Khorne. That gives then SIX power weapon attacks on the charge, that re-roll to wound... At I4... Eat that, hammer guys...
Use double lash to move a single (preferably non-Libby) unit into perfect position to drop Vindicator/full plasma cannon shot from obliterators to thin them down a bit, or even better - send in Havocks/Chosen with 4x Flamer + Combi Flamer. Then dual charge with 2 8-man PW/Meltabomb Berserker units and preferably both Daemon Princes/Sorcerers.
If you play it well, you'll need only a single lash to perform this maneouvre and Hood should statistically block only a single. Even if you fail, there is still chance enemy won't catch ye/will catch only single unit.
Once your done with single termie unit... replay.
1100 points less, 750 to go.