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On the 18th of April, I'll be heading to the Conflict Scotland doubles tournament with a team of CSMs and Demons Tag group.
We've decided that the demons will handle all the close combat action with the Skull Taker and some Blood letters leading the charge, and i'm sure that som extra power from the soulgrinder will help, but as for the marines i'm a bit less sure.
Due to the rules of a doubles tournament, you can only have teams of races who ally themselves, so my usual choice of Tyranids or Necrons were hindered a bit by their lack of friends. however, because the CSMs and Demons are frequently sharing the bloodlust party cake, as it were, their terms of co-operation are a bit more casual.
Here's the rules as i understand them:
each member of the doubles team must supply 500 points of an army so that the combined forces reach 1000 points, however, as this is a joined force they seem to share a force organisation chart. For example, the 2 mandatory troops choices are split up so that only one is required per the two joined forces. By the same reasoning, only one of the forces needs to take an HQ choice and thus leave the other force open to taking other unit choices. The rules do specify however, that for a second "non-core unit" choice to be taken i.e. Fast attack, Elites, Heavy supports, then you must have one of each of those choices. So, if you wanted to take a Defiler in the CSMs list and already have a SoulGrinder, then you need to take a something like a group of obliteratos and some raptors to allow it. The same thing goes for a third choice of these type of units, you need to have a second choice of the other slots pre filled out in order to do so, and as far as I know these choices can be shared by the combined force and are not limited to just one of the halfs.
The event lasts the whole day and consists of three games per team; capture and control, seize ground, and anihilation.
With that in mind here is what I've got so far:
the Demons carry the assaults and use the soulgrinder holds back with the Chaos Marines in order to capture and hold any objectives whilst being able to defend them. Because the Marines only Require one Troops choice, the rest of their force can be freed up so that more interesting things can be taken, such as Terminators, Defiliers and all the Devotee units (ones which allign themselves with specific gods).
I'm going to be in charge of the CSMs and as such I need to be playing the defensive "must capture thies and hold it off" role for most of it, so I'm leaning towards the idea of a group of marines in rhino with as many heavy weapons as I can get and then escort it with other support units. It's only a simple tactic but it's all I've got for the moment and so with your help I'll be hoping to geta few more Ideas.
I've had a copy of the Chaos codex for a while now and have played heaps of regular Marines so I'm not completely new to them but I'd still appreciate the help of somebody more experienced at using them. Also with Today being Monday, and the Conflict Being all day Sunday, I only have a week to receive replies so please be as quick as possible to your opinion heard.
Any mods who want to remove this trhead after April 18th are welcome to do so.
Thanks to all in advance, Godsmasherbot
7x Plague Marines- 266
Champ w/fist & Twin-Linked Bolt
3x Oblits- 225
Let your friend take a HQ and you will have a tough objective holder and scary heavy weapons support for this point level. And you will be mobile enough to be of use if the daemons need you. If your friend goes strong bloodcrushers you should have an ideal setup.
Last edited by drpieceofme; April 12th, 2010 at 15:50.
Synergy will be key to success in a tourney like this. Some of the less experienced will likely end up taking two separate 500 point army lists while the more effective ones will support each other. Rather than planning "you do this and I'll do this" before the game, think about what works well with each other's armies since game plans must be flexible and made during the battle as well.
I think Lash + Daemons will be highly effective. If the daemons have massive scatters it may take several turns for them to reach combat. With lash you can help them out and even with a max scatter they will be able to reach combat the next turn. Another thing to consider is to take one peice of heavy armor such as a defiler of vindicator otherwise his soulgrinder will eat all of the anti tank fire and likely be destroyed fairly quick. Split their AT fire so that if one does go down you have another huge threat.
I would recommend a defiler here rather than any other heavy or armored choice as it can move & fire to keep up with the daemons and also support assault as well. You do not want the daemons to go into assault and have the rest of your army sitting back unable to fire, thus the defiler will fill in a lot of gaps in the army.
As well, I would NOT suggest holding back the soulgrinder & defiler to hold objectives with the CSM. The damage output both can dish out up close and firing on the move is just obscene. Ram them down the enemy's throat ASAP! If you plan of playing defensive while he's on the offense, you've done a favor for your opponent by dividing yourselves. With these 2 forces, a good defense is a strong offence. Hit them so hard they cannot afford to get into your deployment zone to take those objectives but do keep a small unit back to hold it. If they do decide to go for your back objective, so much of your force is in their zone they will not be able to hold it and thus you can "base swap" and at minimum still pull off a tie.
For the CSM I'd maybe take:
Lash Sorc with squad of 5 CSM in Rhino
Defiler with dual DCCW
5 Chosen with 3 Meltas - use to outflank & nuke side armor. Soulgrinder & defiler in CC can deal any any heavy armor over there too if these miss, but at 1000 pts i wouldnt expect too much for heavies.
For CD take a small unit of plaguebearers to hold the rear objective. They'll be very difficult to remove and more point efficient than using plague marines.
I played a doubles tournament the way you guys are playing it and my partner was a deamon player.
What I played that was really good: rhinos
What my partner played that was really good: heralds of khorne in chariots, bloodletters.
What I whished I had played: a lash sorcerer
What astynax said is pretty much everything I think. I would run a dread with missile launcher and heavy flamer instead of the chosen to add even more armor to the field. With the points left over I would give the CSM a meltagun.
"Iron Within, Iron Without"
Wow you guys this is really helpful, thanks a lot.
my only problem is that seeing as all the models for this force are being supplied by my friend (I ususally play Necrons and Tyranids) I'm limited to what he has, and as of yet he doesn't own any plaguebearers or Plague marines
this idea of a Lash of Submission Scorcerer is a good one though, if i take Astynax's idea of placing him in a rhino with a squad it sounds quite promising.
One thing which I noticed that seems to be overlooked, is that in order to field both the Soulgrinder and a Defilier, the force needs to include both and Elites choice AND a Fast attack choice. My friend thought about having a small group of bikers in order to overcome this and then to roll them around with the guys in the rhino for a little extra protection and speedy objective capturing. Elites will probably something like Possesed instead of a Dreadnought.
when using the Defilier and SoulGrinder I'm gonna take you advice and ram them home into the opponents forces to cause as much demolition as possible.
Here's what I'm thinking the forces will be like:
Skulltaker with squad of Bloodletters (unsure of exact number yet)
Soulgrinder with all upgrades
CHAOS SPACE MARINES
Lash Sorcerer with 5 man squad of CSMs in rhino
small as possible Bikers squad
Possesed (probably 5 man but may add a couple more depending on spare points)
Defilier (might have Havoc launcher)
I'll Tally up some points and edit this post later to get a better idea of what's working. but in the mean time keep posting and lending your game tactics as any and all help is appreciated.
In a chaos list bikers cost over 25% more than a similiar space marine bike, what does this mean? that bikes are too expensive in chaos lists. i prefer raptors as fast attack, a power fist, and either 2 flamers for good anti infantry or 2 meltas can do some serious damage, though they tend to draw a lot of anti infantry firepower, which can be part of a strategy for using them. but for chaos they are the only real fast attack choice.
possesed are a unit that looks great on paper but apparently never seems to work. i like dreads in our elite slots, but chosen with the proper weapon loadouts, mark of slaanesh and powerswords are very mean, or a small squad of deepstriking terms will usually be very effective.
so with what you and others have said i would run a Lash sorc
and a squad of about 7 standard marines and a rhino
thats what you can get for 500. if your team mate can handle all the troop slots you can make the squad raptors for fast attack and wings for your sorc, or chosen squad with whatever special weapon you think will be most effective.
CSM's biggest strength is the best troops in the game but not the cheapest
Godsmasherbot, if at all possible stay away from possessed. Like prisoner said they look good on paper but fail on the battlefeild, if you really have to field a elite slot, terminators, dread or chosen go before possessed.. Also, the bikes are really not worth it, they are way to expensive for what they do, raptors are better.
"Iron Within, Iron Without"
Good calls from the other people so far. Never thought of the dread. Adding more armor would be a huge benefit but if you do need a fast to take the double heavies then cheap raptors with meltas are the way to go. You can take a personal icon and have some precision deep strikes to melt armor or jump in if the sorc is threatened by MCs.
And don't underestimate the value of our main-line troops. Regular CSMs are fantastic... they can drop a ton of bolter shots on the table, they do well in CC, they hold objectives, and they can be loaded out for a small specialist role. ( I am always plesantly suprised that they do so well when I do use them.) They do however, have a jack-of-all-trades vibe... but at a mere 500 pts, that may not be all that bad. Unless your partner is fielding plenty of troop choice (more than 2), you might be facing an eggs in one basket scenario, being that 2/3 of the games you are playing rely on scoring units to win... unless your going for all out obliterating your foes... (and what self-respecting chaos commander isn't) That is unfortunatly, rather foolish.
I have played plenty of games vs my regular opponent, who plays SM, in various amounts of the 3 scenarios... every time, he is going for the annihilation attempt. He does quite well at that.. but his mere minimum 2 Troops, always loses him the game... and when I hold 2+ of the objectives and he can't hold even one because I've wiped his scoring units out and he is far away from even contesting any of the objectives due to chasing down my last unit... I still win and he is left holding the bag.
So do not count on wiping out your foe to the man... My advice is to meet up with your partner and build your lists together... I don't play Deamons, and haven't even looked at the Codex for them. I have heard that their shooting sucks... you are going to have to make up for that... But that being said, take shooting, objective holding and CC units so that you can cover each other. Find a balance between synergy and redundancy. I play Khorne for the majority, so I'm all up in my opponent's face. Not really good for shooty. But, I would suggest that you field a defiler to run with the Soulgrinder... and at least 2 troop choices in transports. 10 for CSM, 8 For Zerkers, and 7 for Plague. After that, I don't use 1K sons or Noise Marines. Just my thoughts. Good luck!
OK, I've read over some more of your post and the consensus seems to bee that a) bikers are too overpriced and b) that I need more troops choices to hold objectives. unfortunately, because my mate doesn't own any raptors (apparently they cost too much to buy and use often enough), the only fast attack choice avaiable are the bikers. As far as Elites go....yeah ok I get what you mean by possesed being a little bit not worth it, so instead we think that a quad of 5 Chosen with 4 meltas and possibly a flamer is a cheaper option. It's also more cost effective as they can outflank and vapourise enemy tanks.
another thing I've noticed is that people seem to be forgetting, is that in order to run both the soul grinder and the defiler, the rules state that "BEFORE A SECOND HEAVY SUPPORT, FAST ATTACK, OR ELITES CHOICE CAN BE MADE, A FIRST CHOICE FOR EACH SLOT MUST BE FILLED". Sorry about the caps but this is a point that I really can't work around.
with that in mind here is what we've "roughly" come up with for the 500 points of CSMs side to the army
5x Chosen + 4 Meltaguns = 130pts
5x CSM w/ Rhino = 110pts
3x Chaos bikers = 99pts
1x Defilier + Havoc launcher = 155pts
total = 494pts
Because we we sure that most opponents wouldn't be able to handle both the Soul Grinder and a Defiler in just 1000 points, we've decided to just stick with that and work thing around it. Because of the force restrictions in the rules, and the Limit on boith time and available models, I wasn't able to factor in the popular choice of having a Lash Sorcerer (he costs 125points). As for the other troops choices, we already have a squad of bloodletters being lead by the mighty Skulltaker, and the regular CSMs are being carried by an APC and gettting Biker Escorts for extra protection so it's not so bad.
Bearing that in mind, our strategy will be thus: whilst the more mobile units such as the rhino and bikers race of to capture objectives, the menacing Defiler will rush headlong towards the enemy and either blast appart their defences simply rush them in combat for maximum damage. On the following turns, the chosen will outflank to catch any tanks left on the sides and the Demons will emerge from the warp in the enemy deployment zones and procede to thoughroughly carve their hides in twain and create mass panic which will divert attention from any objective holders. When it comes to claiming more than one objective, then we'll simply slaughter as many of the oppositions scoring units as possible before the game ends and if we clear them out completely then the day is ours regardless. To quote Astynax "with these 2 forces, a good defence is a strong offence" and with that simple rule I think we might be in with a chance.
How's that for a strategy?