Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I have been thinking about this for a long time, and came to the conclusion that the Chaos Codex, although deeply flawed, is fixable with 2 minor changes...
Here in the middle of 5th edition we have seen the uprising of mech armies as the lists to beat. Everybody has armor. The problem is that the worst playing armies have no access to lots of anti-armor. Specifically ranged anti-armor.
Now everybody will agree that certian entires in the Codex are useless, and that some are over-costed. No argument. PLEASE, no posts about "if unit X cost the same as loyalists everythng would be ok" and also nobody crying about "if we only had the same widget that the loyalists had all would be good."
There are a number of Chaos units that any other army would trade an arm and a leg for.
But anyway, onto the point of this topic.
How to fix the Chaos Codex to work in 5th Edition.
1 -- Put Obliterators back into Elites (where they always should have been) Make them 0-1 if you have to.
2 -- Allow the option of buying "Crazed" off our Dreadnoughts for 15pt.
well i already did write a home grown codex at the time the new one was out, thing is that none official stuff is hardy well perceived when lacking the GW stamp. my version needs tweaks here and there but the basic idea was just like yours. I did found out that without some math hammer and play test the balance can be quickly harmed and some units gets the useless stamp. for years we chaos marines players ask for cult terminators and other units i could go on but i guess if you can do one maybe your take could be better than mine .. good luck
This is my Bolter. There is many like it but this one is mine. My bolter is my best hobby.....And i still hate dragons. Find out More at http://necrohammer-at-war.blogspot.com/
I think, despite it's great lack of fluffy units, the CSM codex is reasonably solid in most cases. My biggest guff with it, though, is that a player has to flip-flop allegiances to different chaos gods in order to actually be able to take on different types of units and armies. You can't make a straight Tzeench/Slaanesh/Nurgle/Khorne and be able to take on any kind of army, as each of the different cult marines have a distinctly different purpose. Long-range anti-transport? That's noise marines with their Blastmaster. But short-range anti-armor? You're SOL if you wanted to go pure Slaaneshi, because that's the job of plague marines, unless you want to hork out the 170 points to get ten regular CSM's so you can give them two meltaguns, and that's not even including the transport that will actually see them to their destination.
I think just more cult-related choices throughout the codex, especially multiples of the same god in the same slot to fulfill different purposes, would make playing CSM feel a lot more fulfilling. As the usual gripe goes, Space Marines get a whole seperate codex for each iteration that has a new special rule, but GW can't be arsed to do the same for all the different CSM factions that are quite wildly different from one another.
I'm a big fan of the current codex, though i will admit the last one was better. I don't think anything really needs to get changed outside of fluff really, like cult termies/dreads/possessed, or the Crazed rule on Dreads be taken away (unless when making it a devotee of Khorne, but then change it to Bloodrage or something).
Also, as much as I loved Oblits as Elites, they do fit better as a Heavy choice and I'm completely understanding as to why they changed it. Especially when you think about old Iron Warriors armies that at 2000 points could field 9 Oblits and 4 Land Raiders and all of the troops had anti-tank weapons and Tank Hunter....I miss that book.
World Eaters: W-47 D-10 L-9
Necrons: W-19 D-3 L-2
Protectorate of Menoth: W-36 D-0 L-7
Ignoring the whole fluff issue for now, the problem I see with the Chaos Codex is its linearity. Every list is based around Marines in Rhinos starting from the standard deployment zone. I don't think any other army is as limited in its deployment. A couple deepstrike, outflank or infiltrate options would go a very long way towards making CSM more interesting to play.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
Yeah, there's a lot of different opinions. Not sure one can just say, "These two things would fix it."
I'd say Oblits are fine as heavy choices. You don't see Devastators, or Long Fangs in elite slots, and those are not quite as versatile.
As for our Dreads - and a few other units -, I think the main problem is not having 'go nuts' results per se. Rather, Chaos units don't get as much of a discount as randomly harmful stuff is worth. 5 points off on our Dreads (considering same basic set-up with SM versions)? A lack of control 33% of the time ought to be worth more than that.
Similarly, Possessed and Spawn were priced out of usefulness. When you can't even know how you're going to use a unit (in the case of Possessed) before it's deployed (also stealing away an outflanking option to spice things up), that's just bad mojo. And I'd probably use a unit of spawn if they were 15 or 20 points a pop (at 20, I'd want them to at least have a 6+ inv save, too).
The same premise holds up with Greater Daemons, if not also Lessers (which I still like).
And an unmarked Daemon weapon? Compare that to a Frost Blade ... yeah, no thanks.
That really seems to be one of the biggest agreed upon complaints about some of our variety units. They're not reliable. BUT if they were cheaper, they wouldn't have to be so reliable. Look at IG armies ...
We did get some of the best troops in the game (but other new dexes are catching up), and have a solid core of an army. It really was our 'fluff' units that fell by the wayside. If we could spare the points for some of the fun stuff, it would be more difficult to complain.
Why does it need fixing? all codexes are written to be fairly balanced. You cant just keep changing a codex because it would suit a tactic or because your list is losing all the time against a particular army.
If your having trouble with an army then change your list. Agreed some of the units are particularly useless....spawn i agree with.
My specific line of reasoning is very specific - CSM have no good ranged anti-tank other than heavy slots. Most other codices, and all the new ones, do. As Mech is king in 5th, (and very intentionally, as it sells more models...) the new codices have been written to deal with it. (again, it sells even more models.)
I have mostly played in the 5E format, but I'm disappointed with the decided lack of fluff army builds that the 3E codex allowed. I feel that it sapped the individual flavor out of Chaos. Don't get me wrong, I do love Chaos, as I consistantly go back to playing them. Most of the units in the book are practiacly useless to me as is anyway(Due moslty to point cost restrictions and $$ for the higher priced kits). I play Khorne, so really Zerkers & Kharn do the job for me at every turn. (I have yet to face Orks or Nids with my Khorne army, I use a shootier mixed list)
I don't feel we need a new dex just to make us better than we are... but it would be nice to get an update to be in line with the set of new dex's. SM, BA, SW, Nids... All of these newer ones have updated to be more than the other dex's. Thereby showing that while the Codecies are ment to be basically equal, there are those that are more powerful as they use newer ideas and expansions.
I really feel that a shift to using "older" technology befitting of the pre-heresy legions as well as a few "newer" ideas such as Abaddon's commissioned Defilers would further seperate us as a twist on Loyalists and give us a slight edge over the loyalists cheaper units. (I.E. Loyalist bikers are cheaper, making ours not worth it. Instead, ours could be more expensive yet have an edge elsewhere as we are supposed to be using technology that has basically been lost to the Imperium.)
Just my $.02
We need our Lieutenants back, right now we don't have a budget HQ unit and it would be nice to have on for lower points games.Drop pods would be nice for this, as well as an infiltrating/outflanking upgrade character like Harker or Al'Rahem.Ignoring the whole fluff issue for now, the problem I see with the Chaos Codex is its linearity. Every list is based around Marines in Rhinos starting from the standard deployment zone. I don't think any other army is as limited in its deployment. A couple deepstrike, outflank or infiltrate options would go a very long way towards making CSM more interesting to play.
Veni Vidi Variant
I came, I saw, I got a different type of Leman Russ.
The spikey ones go faster.
98% of the teen population has smoked weed, the other 2% went straight to crack.
Saga of the Ages. Click it.
Rules for grenades are on page 72 of the rulebook.