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In my thread that asked for your best 5 and worst 5 CSM, Summoned Daemons came up as a bad thing. I'm just about to start to play CSM and wondered is summoning that bad? The price seems right, the Daemons do not have a terrible statline; what goes wrong? Is there anyone who actually likes to summon Daemons who wants to tell me why and how they do it effectively?
I disagree, there statline is pretty bad. For the same cost you could have a chaos space marine statline that has a 3+ armor save, a bolter, and a bolt pistol. The Chaos Space Marine wouldn't be deployed on a random turn either, and have the ability to take equipment that could destroy vehicles.
Compare them to Fenrisian wolves if you want to see what I feel they should be like. 19-24 inch movement+fleet+charging, Same strength, WS, Attacks, no deepstriking, counter-charge, non-scoring but almost half the cost.
See, I don't think Summoned Lesser Daemons are "bad" per say, it's just for the same rough points cost you could be getting something better such as Chaos Space Marines who have a wider arsenal of weapons, deploy when and where you want them to, and can take a transport. I do, however, believe that Summoned Greater Daemons are not very good as you need to sacrifice a Lord or Champion, which will probably end up doing more in the game, for them and they have no mobility once they hit the field, which makes them a very easy target. Tie into all of this the random chance they come in to play too early or too late and do not count as scoring units like their smaller counterpart, and you have one bad unit.
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As the others have mentioned it is more about the fact that for the points other things are just plain better. If they were say 4 points less per model or had something special like poisoned attacks then I would take them but as they stand they just aren't worth it.
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There's also the issue of having to deploy within 6" of an icon, which makes the 'mobility' of deepstriking a rather false advantage. Even assuming that lesser demons were totally worth their points; if you have a unit of CSM that close to an enemy, and you plan on assaulting, just use the freakin' marines! The random arrival is also quite a downside. Imagine having them pop in on turn two, when you can barely deploy past the half-way mark on the field. Now, if you could voluntarily delay them to make sure they'll pop in as surprise support in an assault... well, they'd still be pretty bad all things considered.
As for the Greater Daemon, I've considered it multiple times, even with having to sacrifice a champion. But it seems the people over at GW forgot to give it Eternal Warrior, meaning that 115+ point monstrous creature you bought can be brought down with a single swing of a force weapon or one of the many other instant-kill attacks out there.
Last edited by Axle_Gear; October 6th, 2010 at 21:33.
I'm still a fan of L. Daemons from time to time, but I think they really have to accent your overall build to be worth it. Say, if you run all Plague Marines - as I, and many others do. My PMs would rather squat on objectives than charge in many cases. I've found L. Daemons (while random), to be a fun answer to that. Run 8 or more, and you even get a bit more than a 12" range out of them, so they're getting farther along than your marines would. Of course, this is still helpful if your PMs are tied up in combat, and the Daemons come in. They can assist, or head after shooting units that hold back off the combat line if need be. They would work in a Thousand Sons list nicely, too, I'd imagine.
Running a squad of 8 - 12 won't wreck the rest of your list (if higher points games are your norm), and sometimes you might even find they were that little trick to get you just what you needed - if in a random, Chaos-y way.
I won't argue that they're the most competitive option Chaos has available, but they can be entertaining. Depends why you play the game. That said, I'm still longing for a new, actually-post 5th ed. Chaos codex, or legion codices in which god-specific daemons might once again be deemed 'good' (and I want my Nurglings back).
Dave have some really good points. I'd only add that having a small LD unit can be of service if you're going up against armies that traditionally attack in waves. Nids... Orks. Delaying even a single enemy squad by one round can help turn the tide of the battle.
On movement: Axle_gear mentioned an issue of summoning with regards to their 6" proximity to an icon. I've never found this to be an obstacle, as most need for summoning does indeed take place within about 6"-12" of another friendly unit. This supports combined attacks, which is Chaos' sweet spot. While no one would argue that LDs are superior to CSMs, at the same time, the convenience of having immediate reinforcements on call somewhat compensates for the lack of hitting/staying power. Sometimes, having a few red shirts is all it takes to turn the skirmish around.
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I've never used them, as I feel that in comparison to other chaos units they are expensive and poor stat and wargear wise. I know that some people take them regularly, but they barely seem to last a turn or two before being wiped off the board. If they had some other sort of special rule like assaulting on the turn they arrive then I could be tempted. Otherwise I'll stay well away.
They do. Reread the rules for daemons.If they had some other sort of special rule like assaulting on the turn they arrive then I could be tempted. Otherwise I'll stay well away.
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I personally love them, and use them every game. You are paying a meager 130 points for a squad that arrives safely onto the table and can immediately assault. Daemons add the option of reinforcing to ANY part of the battle that you're being overwhelmed at, adding versatility to an otherwise completely predictable strategy once all your models are on the table. They are also great for holding up units that chaos space marines/ plague marines die to, namely terminators. They're the equivalent as chaos marines against armor ignoring foes except have an invulnerable save, thus creating a tarpit unit. For an army of expensive models a tarpit unit is a godsend, for obvious reasons.
They help boost numbers in exceptionally elite armies as well, such as pure plague marines. As they are also a troops choice they are good for capturing objectives. I'd rather have my little demon squad sitting on an objective than an expensive plague marine squad sitting there doing nothing.
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