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Is summoning Daemons that bad?

6K views 46 replies 21 participants last post by  FluffyTemplar 
#1 ·
In my thread that asked for your best 5 and worst 5 CSM, Summoned Daemons came up as a bad thing. I'm just about to start to play CSM and wondered is summoning that bad? The price seems right, the Daemons do not have a terrible statline; what goes wrong? Is there anyone who actually likes to summon Daemons who wants to tell me why and how they do it effectively?
 
#2 ·
I disagree, there statline is pretty bad. For the same cost you could have a chaos space marine statline that has a 3+ armor save, a bolter, and a bolt pistol. The Chaos Space Marine wouldn't be deployed on a random turn either, and have the ability to take equipment that could destroy vehicles.

Compare them to Fenrisian wolves if you want to see what I feel they should be like. 19-24 inch movement+fleet+charging, Same strength, WS, Attacks, no deepstriking, counter-charge, non-scoring but almost half the cost.
 
#3 ·
See, I don't think Summoned Lesser Daemons are "bad" per say, it's just for the same rough points cost you could be getting something better such as Chaos Space Marines who have a wider arsenal of weapons, deploy when and where you want them to, and can take a transport. I do, however, believe that Summoned Greater Daemons are not very good as you need to sacrifice a Lord or Champion, which will probably end up doing more in the game, for them and they have no mobility once they hit the field, which makes them a very easy target. Tie into all of this the random chance they come in to play too early or too late and do not count as scoring units like their smaller counterpart, and you have one bad unit.
 
#4 ·
As the others have mentioned it is more about the fact that for the points other things are just plain better. If they were say 4 points less per model or had something special like poisoned attacks then I would take them but as they stand they just aren't worth it.
 
#5 · (Edited)
There's also the issue of having to deploy within 6" of an icon, which makes the 'mobility' of deepstriking a rather false advantage. Even assuming that lesser demons were totally worth their points; if you have a unit of CSM that close to an enemy, and you plan on assaulting, just use the freakin' marines! The random arrival is also quite a downside. Imagine having them pop in on turn two, when you can barely deploy past the half-way mark on the field. Now, if you could voluntarily delay them to make sure they'll pop in as surprise support in an assault... well, they'd still be pretty bad all things considered.

As for the Greater Daemon, I've considered it multiple times, even with having to sacrifice a champion. But it seems the people over at GW forgot to give it Eternal Warrior, meaning that 115+ point monstrous creature you bought can be brought down with a single swing of a force weapon or one of the many other instant-kill attacks out there.
 
#6 ·
I'm still a fan of L. Daemons from time to time, but I think they really have to accent your overall build to be worth it. Say, if you run all Plague Marines - as I, and many others do. My PMs would rather squat on objectives than charge in many cases. I've found L. Daemons (while random), to be a fun answer to that. Run 8 or more, and you even get a bit more than a 12" range out of them, so they're getting farther along than your marines would. Of course, this is still helpful if your PMs are tied up in combat, and the Daemons come in. They can assist, or head after shooting units that hold back off the combat line if need be. They would work in a Thousand Sons list nicely, too, I'd imagine.

Running a squad of 8 - 12 won't wreck the rest of your list (if higher points games are your norm), and sometimes you might even find they were that little trick to get you just what you needed - if in a random, Chaos-y way.

I won't argue that they're the most competitive option Chaos has available, but they can be entertaining. Depends why you play the game. That said, I'm still longing for a new, actually-post 5th ed. Chaos codex, or legion codices in which god-specific daemons might once again be deemed 'good' (and I want my Nurglings back).
 
#33 ·
I'm still longing for a new, actually-post 5th ed. Chaos codex, or legion codices in which god-specific daemons might once again be deemed 'good' (and I want my Nurglings back).
hahaha you're not the only one! My friend let me look through his old chaos codex, oh my god! Why Gav! Whyyy!!
 
#7 ·
Dave have some really good points. I'd only add that having a small LD unit can be of service if you're going up against armies that traditionally attack in waves. Nids... Orks. Delaying even a single enemy squad by one round can help turn the tide of the battle.

On movement: Axle_gear mentioned an issue of summoning with regards to their 6" proximity to an icon. I've never found this to be an obstacle, as most need for summoning does indeed take place within about 6"-12" of another friendly unit. This supports combined attacks, which is Chaos' sweet spot. While no one would argue that LDs are superior to CSMs, at the same time, the convenience of having immediate reinforcements on call somewhat compensates for the lack of hitting/staying power. Sometimes, having a few red shirts is all it takes to turn the skirmish around.
 
#8 ·
I've never used them, as I feel that in comparison to other chaos units they are expensive and poor stat and wargear wise. I know that some people take them regularly, but they barely seem to last a turn or two before being wiped off the board. If they had some other sort of special rule like assaulting on the turn they arrive then I could be tempted. Otherwise I'll stay well away.
 
#9 ·
If they had some other sort of special rule like assaulting on the turn they arrive then I could be tempted. Otherwise I'll stay well away.
They do. Reread the rules for daemons.
 
#10 ·
I personally love them, and use them every game. You are paying a meager 130 points for a squad that arrives safely onto the table and can immediately assault. Daemons add the option of reinforcing to ANY part of the battle that you're being overwhelmed at, adding versatility to an otherwise completely predictable strategy once all your models are on the table. They are also great for holding up units that chaos space marines/ plague marines die to, namely terminators. They're the equivalent as chaos marines against armor ignoring foes except have an invulnerable save, thus creating a tarpit unit. For an army of expensive models a tarpit unit is a godsend, for obvious reasons.

They help boost numbers in exceptionally elite armies as well, such as pure plague marines. As they are also a troops choice they are good for capturing objectives. I'd rather have my little demon squad sitting on an objective than an expensive plague marine squad sitting there doing nothing.
 
#11 ·
I run a Word Bearers CSM army, and in the 3rd edition codex we had lots of fantastic daemon choices. I loved the furies and the bloodletters especially. These new daemons have a few uses that I like, and so sometimes I still take a squad in my army. I will often use them to slow up heavy infantry like terminators, because they have an invulnerable save. They are also good when they summon on turn 2 and your rhinos are only halfway across the field, they basically summon directly on top of that objective in the middle of the board. You drop them and keep running toward the enemy with your squads of CSM's. Don't forget that they also cost only 2 points less than CSM's, but since there are NO upgrades, a squad is always 130 points, whereas my CSM squads run 220 for 10 models thanks to AC PF IoCG 2xmelta build.

We are getting the short end of the stick AGAIN when you look back at the fenrisian wolves comparison, because the same squad of 10 grey hunters and a wolf guard with PF is 11 models and costs 203 pts. space wolves also have acute senses and counter-charge, although they don't have the virtually fearless IoCG benefit.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Don't forget that they also cost only 2 points less than CSM's, but since there are NO upgrades, a squad is always 130 points, whereas my CSM squads run 220 for 10 models thanks to AC PF IoCG 2xmelta build.
It's good you brought this up. So often, people make the erroneous comparison of a Lesser Daemon's cost to the base cost of Chaos Space Marine. However, as you mentioned, nobody takes a stripped down marine; we all give them upgrades. This raises the standard price of 10 marines to 255 points (i.e., 10x + 2x meltas + 1x champ upgrade + fist + glory icon + rhino). Suddenly, the cost of those marines escalates to over 25 points/model.

Here are a couple stats. Against MEQs (on the charge):

Lesser Daemons kill: 2.55
CSMs kill: 5.7

However, once the cost for each squad is factored, the stats looks like this:

Lesser Daemons point cost per kill: 50 points
CSMs point cost per kill: 45 points

How about against the standard T4 swarms?

Lesser Daemons kill: 4.5
CSMs kill: 9

Lesser Daemons point cost per kill: 29 points
CSMs point cost per kill: 28 points

Just goes to show that LDs aren't *that* bad in the stats. Of course, they can't scratch walkers or heavily armored vehicles.
 
#14 ·
The ability to assault on the turn they arrive shouldn't be underestimated. Especially as if the icon is in a rhino, you get 6 inches from the rhino hull. And in combat, the daemons are somewhat tougher then marines, as a 5+ invul is actually better against many opponents.

i.e incubi.
 
#15 ·
I'm the type of guy that will listen to all the advice, but even if everyone tells me to not to do something in 40K, I have to try it once just to see for myself. I know not everyone says that summoning is bad, so today I tried Daemon Summoning. I downgraded my regular CSM champion of all his cool gear and I paid for a Greater Daemon. My marine unit ran a foul on a group of 20 Termigaunts and was in bad shape (mainly thanks to my bad rolling). Thankfully on turn three, with only 2 marines left, I summoned my first greater daemon. He came in and wiped the floor with the guants; dispatching them without taking so much as wound. He then moved off into the rest of their Warrior Brood and wiped them out. It helped turn the tide in this battle. I gotta tell you, in this case, it was definitely worth the summon. I'm wondering how many people who don't like to summon daemons, actually never gave it a good try?
 
#17 ·
I rather like the Lesser Daemons, though I rarely use them in standard 40k games. They do get shot to pieces very easily which is a drag.

Having said that, if you have a few points left after your main choices, one small unit of daemons can be very useful, changing a 50/50 Assault into a 80/20.

Easy examples of this would be supporting a small unit of Terminators, or an HQ on his own.
 
#18 ·
i think a squad or 2 of these guys can really be useful, provided you have several potential points of entry (icons) for them.

they're troops choices, and if they come in late they can be used to grab objectives,
they can soak up a fair amount of damage from power weapons etc in combat

the turn they arrive they can charge, hitting like an assault squad when they charge, and they'll stay until they're dead, so a big unit can slow terminators and the like down.

like everything else in the book, they have their place.
 
#19 ·
kloma said:
they're troops choices, and if they come in late they can be used to grab objectives...
There is some debate on whether lesser daemons can actually claim objectives. While I'd say the debate generally favor them as objective snatchers, I can't recall argument off hand; and I'm away from my precious 'dex.

EDIT: Sneaking little codex... it was in my backpack. The argument goes as follow:

Chaos Codex (p 102): "Units of Summoned Lesser Daemons do not use up any force organization selection, but are otherwise treated as Troop units."

Core Rulebook ( p 90 ): "An army's scoring units are all the units that come from its Troop allowance."

The confusion as to whether LDs count as scoring units stems from the word "allowance." What does that mean? I've argued in the in the past that LDs are indeed scoring units, based on the Chaos entry that states they are, "otherwise treated as Troop units." Since nothing previous to this statement precludes them from being scoring units, it seems fairly clear to me that we can treat them as such.

However, the counter-argument hinges on the inferred meaning of the words "Troop allowance" (Core book entry). This odd use of "allowance" really has no set precedent in 40K, although the suggestion by some people is that it's synonymous with those Troop options available in a Force Organization selection. Since LDs don't take up a FO chart selection, then they would not be scoring units.
 
#20 ·
Hope y'all don't mind a quick winge.

I just don't understand why Lesser and Greater Summoned daemons can't take Marks of the Gods. It would hardly have been a difficult task for the Codex writers to work a points cost for it, and would take very little space in the 'dex itself. What it would have done, is given us back a bit of the 'real' flavour of our Daemons.

As they are now, we might as well use Goblins or Airfix models for your Daemons. For me it just doesn't feel right that my Daemonettes do exactly the same thing as my Bloodletters or my Horrors.

Bring on the new 'dex asap.
 
#21 ·
Daemons score at the GT, ill go with that. ( though sometimes they sneak into transports and this doesn't get caught) :p

daemons are troops that don't take up a force orginisation slot meaning they don't count towards your minimum, anything else is really wishful thinking and over-zealous rules bending. imo
 
#22 ·
It's not just wishful thinking, kloma. There is a legitimate argument over what the word "allowance" means. While we both agree daemons don't take up a FO slot, at the same time, you're inferring a good deal of meaning when you say afterward that, "anything else is really wishful thinking and over-zealous rules bending." It's not so clear cut as that :)
 
#23 ·
i dunno man, "otherwise treated as a troops choice" just seems to cover it.

aside from taking a FO slot, they are troops. the word allowance seems to be poorly worded, but i dont see how it can overwrite them being troops, and therefore being able to take objectives.

essentially, if they are "allowed" to be troops, which they are. then they are part of the troops allowance surely?

hope someone comes up with an answer or my GT list is being drastically re-written lol :D
 
#26 ·
andrewbeater, are you referring to the GW help line? They are not very consistent between rulings.

but i dont see how it can overwrite them being troops, and therefore being able to take objectives.
I wouldn't say it overwrites them as much as calls into question exactly what GW is trying to say. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it looks to me like LDs should be sorted as scoring units, even if there is some space for debate.

essentially, if they are "allowed" to be troops, which they are. then they are part of the troops allowance surely?
Not to be too nitpicking, but I don't think we can assume this without first knowing what in tarnation "troop allowance" means. Some possible interpretations include:

1) Any model or squad that is classified as a troop unit (in which case, LDs would obviously qualify, and therefore be legal tender for objective holding)

2) Any unit that takes up a troop Force Organization selection (in which case, LDs would not qualify, and therefore would not be capable of holding objectives)
 
#27 · (Edited)
Yes I do, but as I said, sadly they aren't very good. I tried twice in Canada for some answers and got no answer at all from email. It's part of my philosophy that Games Workshop cares about money but little else. I'm not sure they've shown me otherwise; no service, price jumps, lack of "value" packages. Although I was pleasantly surprised when I seen the Bloodcrushers come three in pack. I nearly fell over. Maybe we are seeing a different trend?
On another point that is along the same line, if a troop has a dedicated transport like a rhino and you are playing kill points, do both the rhino and the troop count as kill points, only the troop counts as kill points or do you need to kill both the troop and the rhino for one kill point. I've seen it done a bunch of different ways and I'm confused. (no surprise here).
 
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