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ok so i just recently bought into this whole deamons of chaos idea and was looking for some help. I have no idea what makes for good HQ choices and overall what makes a good deamon list. so far i have bought 15 pink horrors and 1 changeling (for a total of 2 units of 8 horrors) what do people use for a herald of tzeentch chariot? is he worth taking or are greater deamons a better option? im pretty new to 5th ed being on a break from 40k for a long time. any help at all would be great
I've only played Daemons for 10 months, but I think I can still help. For HQ's, heralds of Tzeentch can be good and I like the Great Unclean One. He is one tough bugger to kill and can dish out the punishment all at a relatively good price. Chariots have to be modeled yourself, usually it is a Screamer pulling a Pink Horror on either a homemade floating disc or a chariot, usually taken from a Fantasy model such as Elf chariots (if I'm not mistaken). One of your best heavies is the good ole Daemon Prince marked with Tzeentch so he can take the Bolt of Tzeentch. The bolt is one of the best non ordinance weapons you can get as a Daemon. One of your Pink Horrors can take the Bolt as well and should. The other good heavy is the Soul Grinder. Some people believe you should take more than one Soul Grinder in a game for staying power, but it's up to you. Soul Grinder has an ordinance weapon, so it is your best choice to take out many opponents at once. Some of the best Elite choices are your friendly neighborhood Bloodcrushers. Your troops are mixed: Daemonettes are fast, but with a 5+ inv save, they are squishy. They do get a lot of attacks with rending weapons, but keeping them alive is an issue. Same with Bloodletters; they have 5+ inv so they are squishy as well, but it takes only a few of them to get into combat with armoured units to see they are deadly with their power swords. I like to take 15-20 of them at a time knowing that half or so will die before combat. Pink Horrors are good at shooting and with their 4+ inv save they aren't as squishy, but they are no good in cc. Plaguebearers are good at objectives, good at staying alive, but not so good in a fight. That's it without going unit by unit. There is lots of opinions out there, so listen to all of them and make your own decisions.
I'd agree with a lot of this. The best units in the Daemon codex are:
1. Fiends. 3x6 with unholy might upgrade is awesome. The only downside is the cash cost. But there are plenty of conversion options. I did mine with fantasy goblin spider riders, daemonettes and greenstuff making some spider/daemonette centaur models. With the new Dark Eldar codex these are going to be even more mandatory if you want to keep up with the meta-game.
2. Tzeentch Heralds on chariot. Bolt is a must have. Master of Sorcery and We Are Legion are also well worth their points. Convert up at least two. Pink Horror on a disc (the Warriors Of Chaos Tzeentch Lord disc works best, but it's easy to scratch build one using platicard and some green stuff) plus two Screamers.
3. Plaguebearers. I have two units of 5-7 in every list.
4. Pink Horrors. One unit should always have the Changeling. I find units of five with a Bolt work best.
5. Daemon Prince with Mark Of Tzeentch and Bolt. I don't bother with any other upgrades and tend to run them in pairs. I prefer them to Soul Grinders because: a) they are better at reliably cracking transports; b) they are smaller, fit in my army case better and are more transportable; c) every army spends plenty of points on anti-armour and its always good to waste other peoples points; d) they are cheaper; e) I can run them in my CSM lists; f) they have a much small deepstrike footprint, particularly if you use the older metal daemon princes. Other than that, they are more resistant to melta weapons, though more vulnerable to small arms fire and almost as good in close combat.
Also good are:
1. Bloodcrushers. Excellent at taking out Marines and Marine-equivalents and if they didn't compete with Fiends for the three Elite slots, would be in every list I made. Best as units of four with the three upgrades (fury, icon & instrument) so you have four different models for wound distribution purposes. 4 Bloodcrushers plus 2x6 Fiends is good, but I still prefer 3x6 Fiends.
2. Flamers. Again let down by having to compete with Fiends (and Bloodcrushers) for elite slots. Best in units of 3 without the bolt upgrade as suicide squads. Deepstrike them in a line (which is why you run units of 3) 2-3 inches from enemy units and hope you don't scatter too badly.
3. Great Unclean One. Keep them cheap and just give them the grenade upgrade. Keep them away from Space Wolves with the Jaws psychic power though. Good in smaller point games since they are much cheaper than the other greater daemons.
4. Bloodletters. Fragile, so run 12-14 of them per unit. Great against Marine and Marine-equivalents. But against Orks, Guard, Eldar, etc (in fact anything without power armour) I prefer units of 14-16 daemonettes. Just as fragile, but the extra attacks work out better than power weapons here.
5. Daemon Prince with Mark Of Nurgle, Flight, Iron Hide and Noxious Touch. Breath Of Chaos is also great if you have the points. Expensive, but fast, durable and great against high toughness opponents.
6. Slaanesh Herald on a Chariot. Run with Soporific Musk and Unholy Might. Acts as a sort of pimped-out super-Fiend and great value for the points. Works best in lower point games when you can't justify the cost of a greater daemon. Convert up using a fantasy chariot (I used Tomb Kings chariots), a daemonette and two of the new plastic seekers.
7. Keeper Of Secrets or Bloodthirster. Either of these work well in higher point games. Not a fan of the Lord of Change since two Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots are cheaper and almost always better. Fateweaver and Skarbrand are too specialist, but can work well in lists designed around them. Ku'Gath is just too expensive.
8. Skulltaker on a Juggernaut. Works well with a unit of 3 Bloodcrushers (with instrument & fury). Also good on a chariot, but I prefer the Juggernaut since he keeps his independant character status.
Stuff to avoid:
1. Any Herald on foot and the Herald of Nurgle in any form. Too expensive compared to just having more basic troops.
2. Beasts of Nurgle. Like the Herald of Nurgle, it's always better to just get more Plaguebearers.
3. Furies. Too expensive for what they are. If they were 2-3 points cheaper or were troops they would still just be average.
4. Icons. Too expensive and they can make your deployment predictable for the opponent. Only exception I can think of, is on Bloodcrushers for wound allocation or if you play Apocalypse / high point games where space on the table is at a premium.
Everything else I haven't mentioned is fairly average, good for fun games or fluff reasons and shouldn't hold you back too much in limited numbers.
One final piece of advice. If there is ever a chance you might play Fantasy Battle, build everything on the square bases. The only exception are the old metal Daemon Princes which don't come with square bases so would be technically illegal to put them on them (and Daemon Princes are crap in Fantasy Battle anyway). Bloodcrushers, Greater Daemons and the new plastic Daemon Princes have a slightly better deep strike footprint on square bases, the rest are slighly worse, but it all balances out. You could also keep your basic troops (just Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Horrors & Plaguebearers) on round bases and use movement trays with round slots or magnets for Fantast Battle which is what I do.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by cannibal; October 25th, 2010 at 11:57.
I agree with the cannibal (how often do you get to say that?) on virtually all counts.
All those units are definitely good (although skulltaker may be a bit too pricey for what he does) and also I find that Seekers of Slaanesh and Flesh hounds both work quite well.
Also, I find Icons are useful in high point games, especially if you're playing a team game (where things get crowded fast) or are using a lot of flamers of Tzeentch.
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
I agree about icons. Take 1 in lists up to 1500 unless like me you use 3x3 flamers when I take one in each wave.
If you have fateweaver an icon can also be useful bringing in reserves within the 6" radius security zone that Kairos generates.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
Makes sense in a Fateweaver list. But most Fateweaver lists often consist of large numbers of Bloodcrushers. The fourth Bloodcrusher in a unit should usually have an icon to help with wound distribution. Deep strike the Bloodcrushers, then Fateweaver and anything else that wants to use Fateweaver's protective zone using the Bloodcrusher's icon. Only exception is when playing against lists containing Mystics, when it probably makes more sense to deep strike Fateweaver first.
Can't agree with you for anything less than ~2500 points though (apart from on Bloodcrushers). Above that it makes sense because the table is going to get very cramped and loosing 25 points / icon isn't too significant. Otherwise, IMHO icons are too expensive and make you predictable. Daemons should never be predictable. And if you're going to use Flamers as an Alpha-Strike unit, you probably won't have an icon where you want it anyway.
I've never liked Icons. They'd be really good if you could use them on the same turn they arrive. But this isn't the case so your first/perferred wave will never benefit from an Icon.