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This Thread has Been expanded to include Ideas for new Units as well as Changes
I just wandered what annoyed other people the most in the chaos space marine codex, and what they would change given the opportunity. Myself, I would improve summoned daemons or drop their cost, and also drop the cost of raptors and bikes to make them a viable choice. As well as this, I would add some more psychic powers with effects that aren't just shooting attacks, e.g. causing every enemy unit to take a leadership test at -1/-2 or fall back, or that improve stats, e.g. the psyker gains +2 strength for the duration of the turn. finally I would either change the cost of possessed or make them more consistent in their abilities with options for upgrades, perhaps instead of rolling at the start of the game, at the start of each turn, that way if you got fleet or scouts for example, you wouldn't be stuck with it for the rest of the game, and would still have the chance to cause carnage with power weapons.
As for what annoys me: none of the units have the chance for amazing stats like 3+ invulnerable saves, and icons mean that units become good in that area, but are merely ok in the other areas rather than amazing in one area and good in the others, e.g daemon princes can have toughness 6, but then have a lower initiative, inv sv. etc, rather than being able to have T7 and still good i and Inv sv etc. (Hope you know what I mean here.)
That's more than enough of my thoughts, what is it that hacks you off?, or do you have a great idea for a new unit, or changes to the current ones?
Anyone reading this for the first time, please see other pages for other ideas and current discussions.
Last edited by bliss-giver; December 23rd, 2010 at 16:26.
I believe the current Codex was designed in for a "simplified" game, where everything was going to be simple and easy to understand, unlike the old ones where there needed to be lots of FAQs. To be fair, I think this Codex does this pretty well, its very simple and its pretty easy to understand.
The problem is that I think they tried to make Chaos more like Loyalists. 3.5 was the benchmark for the Trait based Space Marine codex (3rd Ed?) so it was on the other foot, but they simplified this but then they changed their minds, and when Space Marines gained so much, it really ticked me off.
The great thing about Chaos was that they were very customisable - we had lots of options which was important over many armies, something the newer codex's still have. Little things like weapon options, special rules and equipment really makes things stands out, which Warhammer Fantasy has in bundles.
I don't think its the problem with the core units - they're great. I think they're too good though. They're so elite and well priced that why should we take anything else? Our Troops in Rhinos do the same job as Raptors, but count as scoring units, so why take Raptors? Or Bikers? Or Chosen? Or most other things. Its the same with Obliterators vs Havocs / Preds etc. - they're too good and outclass them to the point where they're redundant.
In any game, I believe that if a choice is to be given, it has to have something which stands it out from other choices. CoD6 is a good example (if you've played that). The M4, ACR and F2000 assuault rifles have literally the same stats, but the ACR has accuracy but lower rate of fire, F2000 has rate of fire but lower accuracy, and the M4 is sort of in the middle. Each have something that stands them out but an arguement can be made to have one over the other.
To fix this codex, I think that units should be given an advantage over something that does something similar. A simple change would be to count basic Chaos Space Marines (Chosen, Havocs, Bikers and Raptors) as "Counts as Scoring Units". Chosen now become effectively Infiltrating Marines, Havocs can now hold objectives, and Bikers and Raptors can do last minute contesting. They might need a bit of a point boost to balance them out, but they won't sit in the Troops section so you still need to take two Troops to balance things out. This sort of sorts out Alpha Legion and Night Lords and gives them a bit of a boost.
Another idea, sort of involving this, would be the ability to replace that rule with another Special rule, such as Tank Hunters, Seige Specialists, Furious Charge etc. This keeps it simple but gives them a purpose. This again would give them advantages over other units and put a real strong focus on small, elite armies.
Daemon's also got messed up far too much. It seemed like a good idea, but they're not very customisable. Just giving them Icons and splitting them up into Lesser Daemons, Daemonic Packs (cavalry) and Daemonic Fliers (wings) would make them much more interesting.
As for Legion rules, I think they'd be best to keep those out. I wasn't a fan of them as it encouraged people to abuse them, particularly Alpha Legion / Iron Warriors to get extras which were really cheap. However, having something like the Marine Codex where buying a special rule on your HQ or having a special character giving you new army rules is a good idea.
I think simple changes would be better than more complex ones found in 3.5, but I think they just need to go back and add things, keeping in mind to give units advantages over similar units, and to remember that we're evil, somewhat daemonic and obsessed than just merely spikey Marines.
what to add after a so well explained point of view, which i agree with 100%
thanks Anthrix for sharing
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Thanks for that great answer, I'd like to know if others agree with you or not. I really see your point and agree with what you say.
I would have to say change the fast attack section. As was previously stated, our cored is too strong to warrant taking the fast attack choices outside of themed lists.
Also, in the same idea as themed lists, bring back bonuses for running a 1 god army. Give us the choice to be a complete undivided list, but say if we want to run corsairs or deathguard, give us a little something for running a list that is actually made of 1 canon army. Having got into chaos too late, I never had a chance to take an iron warriors army or a plague army. I would love to see an expansion book that allowed for cult armies.
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
CSM: W:25, D:3, L:9
DE:W:2, D:0, L:0
Other than altering the points costs for Bikers, Raptors, Possessed, etc. i would like to see Independant Characters that actually bring something to the table other than CC prowess or a bunch of Psychic Attacks. I'd like to see some ICs give your army Scout, or FnP or fun things like that, an IC or two that allow Raptors or Chosen as troops choices, even adding in some sort of Psychic Hood wargear for at least Khorne followers. Maybe giving us some sort of Chaos Drop Pod, removing the chart for Dreads and just making them regular old Dreads without any wierd side effect.
By no means am I a hater of our current codex, I play with it, I win with it and I have fun with it, but these suggestions are some of the ways I think people will enjoy them more if not again.
World Eaters: W-47 D-10 L-9
Necrons: W-19 D-3 L-2
Protectorate of Menoth: W-36 D-0 L-7
I would like to see...
-Typhus with true T5.
-Lash of Submission toned down or increased in points.
-Daemon prince wings increased in points.
-Bikers, Raptors, Possessed and Havocs to have their points reviewed. A better table for possessed too as they are a bit dull.
-Cult terminators. Actually you don't have to go the whole way but at least make them fearless. You could make this a special rule of taking the corresponding special character eg typhus makes IoN termies fearless and Lucius does the same to MoS termies etc.
-An anti psy power device such as the spy hood available to marines etc. Could be restricted to Tzeentch models even.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
Some new deamong engines, SM get thrown a new vehicle with each codex, it's about time chaos get some new weapons themslves.
Also a fix to the dreadnoughts crazed table and please a plastic kit for it, preferably with the twin dccw options.
Raptors at their current costs are about the same as space marine variants, so i do not see a pressing need for a points reduction, bikers on the other hand are not, and do not have the same capability to get attack bikes, or become troops. I think more than a change to our fast attack or elite units we actually need a core rule change allowing infantry or cavalry hold objectives, while taking away vehicles or walkers ability to contest or hold. If my terminators could hold a point after deepstriking or riding their land raider accross the board i would take them alot faster. if my raptors could take a point, i could find the room, but since i need to be worried about holding an objective, i need a troop selection, and the raptors become a luxury i can not afford.
Changes to the crazed rule for dreads would not be bad either. something along the lines of that if an opponent unit is within assault range, the dread must fleet and assault.
I would also like to see psychic hoods on our sorcerers, and possibly a way to add a second power without the mark of tzeentch.
what i actually foresee is that in the next codex we should get HQ's that modify our units abilities and can make raptors and/or bikes capable of holding objectives, and some sort of psychic defence.
I would like to see our army produce it's own weapons and armoured units such as tanks etc. We are just using Loyalist equipment now. You'd think we'd be able to produce our own unique units by now. I'm with Prisoner37 in that I would like us to have some pysker defense as I've said before in a different thread. Some of the costs need to be more reasonable especially for our fast attack as mentioned before. I also think our Dreadnaught cost is too expensive because of the Crazed chart. I know, in the right circumstances it can be good, but in most cases, it's a pain in the tush. I think that the Possessed chart options should be wargear to be bought for points with a limit to the choices you can take. I think it would be nice to be able to summon a greater daemon without losing a champion (or the like). I know it would cost more, but I think that the option to summon without losing a guy would be worth it. Also, summoning a broader selection of daemons would be better; like pink horrors that can shoot.
Last edited by andrewbeater; November 1st, 2010 at 20:26. Reason: spelling error