Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Ok, so i went up against these guys in a 2k game.. Sieze ground, 4 objectives. I barely survived the 5 turns but only lost by 1 objective in the end. This seems like a tough match up tho. plenty of lances to knock out our mech and instant deathing oblits, a high volume of poisoned shooting (bye bye demon prince) and some pretty viscious assault troops who will kill move of our guys (plague marines and zerkers alike) before we even get a chance to hit.
The best counter for DE seems to be long range shooting which is something we really don't have alot of. It's 205 for a lascannon CSM squad, oblits are painful to lose to a 4+ coversave with the instant death resulting from dark lance s8, preds might work, but again the lances come into play so their survivability is not good. The best looking option on paper seems to be autocannon havocs.
Anyone else come up against these guys yet? If so, how did you fare?
I haven't yet played them, but havocs sound a good firesupport unit, you're not paying for the extra wound lost to instant death, and as they're not a vehicle, lances aren't so potent. Also, they can have the extra models meaning that when one dies you don't lose a heavy weapon, but also allowing you to have some small arms fire to deal with the bulk of the force. Instead you could try force denial, for example field lots of tanks so that the poisoned weapons and high initiatives have little use, then focus first on the weapons that can harm you e.g the lances, or field mainly infantry so that lances have little use and are only killing a 15 point model per turn.
Having been a DE player for 10 years, and a Nurgle CSM player for 7, I feel I may have something to add.
The key to taking apart any DE force is to knock down/immobilise their transports & vehicles. If you ground their troops, their most massive strength (speed and the ability to drive the flow of the game) is entirely wiped out. Not to mention that you get the added benefit of taking out the large number of Dark Lances that adorn nearly every bit of DE "armor" out there.
Possibly easier said than done depending on your army build, but Defilers would rock in this capacity. My DE list has a bunch of transports and vehicles that take up some serious real estate when deployed on the table. Especially if you can get first turn, laying down battle cannon pie plates across the DE deployment zone is gonna be rough on them. You are bound to hit multiple targets and the damage rolls for ordinance are not nice to Open Topped vehicles.
As a DE player I know I would not relish the idea of facing my own Defiler-heavy Nurgle list. If I didn't get first turn as DE, that might be the end of things there.
On the flip side, the new DE codex is truly evil against Monstrous Creatures. Tyranids are one thing, as they usually bring a fair number of big boys to the party. Us CSM, however, usually only have a lone DP running around the table. Have to say, that guy is gonna be toast with little to no effort with a new DE list in no small part to the huge number of poisoned weapons they can pack - a Venom (think Eldar Vyper without the mounted gun) with a small unit of Trueborn with the right kit, can pump out a walloping 29 poison shots PER TURN at the 18-36" range. And that is not including the move from the transport (which is a fast skimmer). With certain special characters or wargear upgrades there are also options to up some of those poison rolls to 3+ or even 2+ in some rare instances.
But this is only half of the nasty equation against MC's as there is a ridiculous number of "Instant Death Regardless of Toughness" wargear/weaponry and even some special kit that "Removes From Play." So, while eternal warrior DP's will be immune to the ID nastiness, they are not immune to the "removed from play" verbage, so be wary of Haemonculi with Hexrifles, Shattershards, Crucibles of Malediction, and Necrotoxin missiles from their new flyers. At least the missiles give a save against MEQ...
If you don't have a ton of vehicles or other large tough targets to distract the DE guns, I might leave the DP at home. He would just have a HUGE target on his back the second he steps on the battlefield, and if you don't knock out their mobility early in the game, even with wings, the DE are going to be able to run rings around him and pick him off at leisure.
You should also be wary of the Wyches. While not terribly killy (especially against plague marines) they are one of the better tarpit units in the game and can just grind units away over time. A good DE player will use these units to advantage to "pin" units where he would rather have them be, and strike lethally at depleted Chaos units to wipe them out when possible. But they have a 4+ Inv save in ANY cc, greatly blunting the utility of powerfist champs, and over time just armor save you to pieces. Toe to toe these sadistic ladies are not going to win against many Chaos units, but then again no self-respecting DE general goes toe-to-toe with anyone...
Another dynamic to be aware of with the new codex is the "Power from Pain" special rule the DE have. If any unit with this rule kills off a non-vehicle unit, they get a pain token. This confers abilities to DE units like Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and finally Fearlessness. So do be careful, as the idea of sacrificial units can come back to bite you in the rear with these guys. And some units like the Haemonculi and their constructs, enter play with Pain tokens built in!
I think Chaos is competitive against DE, especially the wave of new players that are picking up the army without a real feel for how it plays yet. It has always been, and still is, a finesse army. DE are immensely fragile, and if played like marines will fold by the bottom of turn 2 (especially against Chaos!).
However, DE generals that are seasoned with the army before this codex, or are intuitive fast learners, will be a challenge. I have always found highly mobile armies that can hit like the new DE can, give my lovable Nurgle boys problems.
But unit to unit, CSM are infinitely more resilient and forgiving. The real challenge with DE will be bettering those generals that really play to the DE strengths of speed and alpha strike capability, while playing for Objectives intelligently.
The sheer mobility of the army and the flexibility it has to grab late game objectives is daunting. And in that sense, the successful DE general is not coming to the table looking for a meatgrinder. They are looking to swoop in and strategically brutalize opponents at their advantage, cripple enemy units where needed, ignore enemy units when they are irrelevant, and then command the battlefield from an objective perspective when it counts. If the Chaos general does not respond to that type of game in kind, without using appropriate counter-strategems, they will lose.
The key for any army against Dark Eldar at its most basic is to take back control of the flow of engagement. Just remember, a downed Dark Eldar is a dead Dark Eldar.
I feel I must preface this by saying I have not played against the new DE this is simply theoryhammer on my part.
The way I plan on dealing with DE is the same way I dealt with Mechguard, Blood Angels, and will always deal with Orks.
Pound for pound they are the best light vehicle destroyers in the game (especially when shooting at BS 4 or better). Armor spam will be even more necessary then against other lists. The first turn or two it will be of the utmost importance to gun down transports (like dealing with Ork trukk spam and Mechguard which we've been doing for years). The vehicles are flimsy (open topped and only 10-11). Catching an autocannon shell offers a 50% chance of penetration. Needless to say Havocs might become a viable option against them (I'm thinking 4 autocannons a champ with fist or vanilla and then 2 more dudes) Each turn this should put down a transport/any vehicle that can be seen. 3 of these should threaten damn near the entire board. And will threaten the troops they dislodge too (and theoretically threatening instant death on the enemy command elements)
HQ is a bit more dicey. As has been mentioned: Poison, poison everywhere. This means that DPs might not be the best option. Personally I think that this might be the one situation where a Lash-Sorc might become worthwhile. He can be given ablative wounds in the form of marines/chosen. Use the rhino as a lash platform to drag/push elements you don't like into the line of fire of the autocannon bases. Not to mention he might be able to give the DE HQ a fight if it comes to that.
But the breakdown I think will be that our troops can lay the hurt into them as much as they can lay into us. Bolters can and will destroy the foot soldiers the DE can muster. Their ease of wounding means the same to us, but we wear armor. In assault their dedicated assaulters will eat us alive. But at medium-short range we have the advantage and we need to play to it.
Also, is anyone else casting a suspicious eye at Dreadnaughts. I am. They will either absorb fire or offer a platform for a rocket launcher (another decent anti-transport weapon that doubles as an elf-killer [strength >3 ap >5]). If they absorb lance-fire then our autocannons are safer longer not to mention our rhinos and troops. But if they don't absorb damage then they hit assault and tarpit/kill for the rest of the game.
There seems to also be an abundance of melta and plasma which made it tough going for my termies. the sacrificial 3man combi-melta squads even have a harder time of it. usually you'd drop in about 5" away and look to melt their heavy support, but even a small scatter taking you 6.1" away and you cant shoot them at all. your deep strikes need to be riskier vs these guys and so the odds of them going wrong go up.
Thanks for the heads up then.
I guess DPs will still be our leaning-post HQ. Rely on that +3 save and avoiding line of sight as best we can. If they lack counter-psyker the ur-abuseable lash will make itself known. Hopefully this can be used to take out some troopers (drag out of cover, assault, hope to not get hosed the next round). Additionally a winged nurgle prince with Nurgle's Rot might work, it should find purchase for its wounds pretty well.
I havent yet had the pleasure to fight DE since the new dex. I do remember a simple squad of 20 lesser daemons taken out 2 DE transports wipeing out one squad in one of the transport completly than tar piting the other units in a single game. I played this veteran DE player a couple times over the past year or so and my same LD unit did about this much damage to him every game. This of course was in the old DE dex but if the profile of there transports are still the same As a CSM player I say along as you can pump out enough str4 attacks in any way shape or form I wouldnt worry to much about those skimmers bringing in treats. CSM should always be played as a High point low unit elite strike force. If you can spear head your way and get DE split up and focus your entire army on a portion of theres you should have no problem mopping up the rest.
It will really come down to the DE army build and their generalship. I think Chaos can make a go of it with a DP **IF** you force target priority pressure on the DE opponent (thinning out all that firepower is going to be critical) and make sure to keep that DP in optimal matchups throughout the game (be mindful of Wych tarpits, be careful about engaging or being engaged by their HQ units, and for the sake of all that is unholy never stumble around in the open - that 3+ save will help against most of their poisoned shooting, but is going to do bupkiss against massed Darklance and even Disintegrator fire).
If you can drive what that DP does on the board as opposed to being on the receiving end of the DE strategy, it can work.
But for what it is worth the DE are not entirely without anti-psychic kit, and I actually don't think you will see the following units or wargear in the average competitive DE list, but you will need to keep a eye out for the following:
Lady Malys: Special HQ. She and any unit she joins is IMMUNE to all Psychic effects. If you go Lash-heavy with a more than once-in-a-blue-moon opponent, I wouldn't be surprised if you see her make it onto the table sooner rather than later.
Crucible of Malediction: Once per game forces all Psychers within 3d6 inches to test against their leadership. Any that fail are removed from play. Not ID, mind you. So our eternal warrior DP's are eligible for this effect, assuming a very unlucky leadership roll.
Just remember, they're only fast if they're still in their paper-like transports. I know, they can get an invul save and can reduce our range by a small amount, but pen hits will be VERY easy to come by for us, and once those units are on foot, the assault phase is back in our hands, there will be far less anti-tank and it will be slightly harder for them to contest objectives.
World Eaters: W-47 D-10 L-9
Necrons: W-19 D-3 L-2
Protectorate of Menoth: W-36 D-0 L-7
Bolters dark eldar don't have that high armour save