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  1. #1
    Member Grave Guardian's Avatar
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    Some advice needed :)

    ok so i have played my first game of 40k with daemons and i lost. it wasa kill point game of 1.5k and i got my bum cheeks handed to me by a CSM player who has alot more experience with his army. Despiteloosing i really enjoyed my game and fell slightly in love with the army as a whole. Now i would like to start winning or even being slighlty better would help. i know it was my first game so i shouldnt expect much but i feel i could have done better had i thought about it more. so ill tell you what im using, what i did, what i have learned and if there is anything you could add i would greatly appreciate it .

    i used
    Bloodthirster
    might
    blessing

    deamon prince
    wings
    mark of nurgle
    flight
    iron hide
    cloud of flies
    noxious touch

    6 fiends with might

    7 plague bearers
    7 plague bearers

    12 bloodletters

    3 flamers
    3 flamers

    5 horrors
    bolt

    5 horrors
    bolt
    changeling

    so i split my army like this blood thirster, 1 horror unit, 1 plague bearer unit, fiends,1 flamer unit
    what i learned: ok so my deployment was whack. my prefered selection came in (one above) bloodthirster died due to mishap as did flamer unit. my fiends did well from where they were (enemys flank) but i think i should have put any unit with shooting abilities on the board first. i charged some oblits with my fiends and thought it would be an easy show but unfortunatly i rolled 0 rending hits in the combat. a turn later (after i used hit and run) they litterally minced a unit of CSM with ease.. lesson learned here lol. one unit of flamers managed to kill 8 of a 10 unit of CSM with ease but died to shooting later on. blood letters i brought them on too far away and the only managed to hit one combat with which they annilated a unit of raptors. my deamon prince managed to kill a CSM unit and one oblit in combat but that was basically all i got. one unit of horrors popped his defiler too.

    i know this might be a tad confusing as im writing it in a hurry before work lol. but basically im just looking for any strategies that could help me out a little. like am i correct in assumming i should be putting all my shooting units on the board first to make way for my more assualt based units to finish up the job? should i be more conservative with my deep striking or should i go balls to the wall in your face? any help at all or even just a little nudge in the right direction would be great


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  3. #2
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    i'd drop the bloodletters and get blood crusher, drop a unit of flamers and get a herald of tzeentch. I'd start dropping monstrous creatures in the same wave, i started doing that half a year ago and it works like a charm as the usual synergi does since two MC are pretty hard to deal with at once while one is often manageble...

    at for strategy hmm, play more games? i find it hard to give any kind of singular advice other than above as your priorities should allways vary depending one the army youre playing against. Remember he has to deploy before you roll for your waves so you should use that to your advantage as its one of the big advantages you get as a daemon player...

    cheers

  4. #3
    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grave Guardian View Post
    my prefered selection came in (one above) bloodthirster died due to mishap as did flamer unit.
    Let's go over how you lost two units in Deep Strike mishaps: 1) You can only get a mishap by scattering onto friendly or unfriendly units (within an inch), onto DANGEROUS terrain or off the table. 2) After you confirm that you have indeed mishaped, you do not automatically lose the unit; you roll on the mishap table. I know because in the beginning, I was mishapping wrong and it was until CrownAxe explained it to me properly, did I realize my mistakes. Just because you scatter onto difficult terrain, doesn't give you a mishap. It seems unlikely to mishap killing two units in one game if you did it right. You should explain a) what you scattered onto and b) what happened when you confirmed the mishap. Because if you had of kept your Bloodthirster and a unit of Flamers, it would certainly change the game for you, especially your Bloodthirster who is 250 points!
    Also, it has been my experience in game play and on this forum, that Daemon Princes are best taken with the Mark of Tzeentch. It gives you access to better shooting attacks and improves your invulnerable save to 4+. It really is a matter of opinion, but it seems to be a popular opinion. I have to disagree with Sirholy about one small thing; I like Bloodletters against armies with high armour values because of the Hellblades. Again, just a matter of opinion, but I'd take out the Plaguebears for the Bloodcrushers instead. I just personally have zero luck with Plaguebearers, that's all.

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    i rolled a 2 for both units on the mishap table lol on unit landed on top of my opponents Raptor squad (flamers) and the blood thirster landed literally right on the dead centre of a wall. i like my bloodlettters.. it was my first game but they got their points back and i didnt loose on of them. Everyone seem's to say bloodcrushers are awesome and i do plan on eventually getting some but can somebody explain why? i can get nearlly 3 bloodletters for one bloodcrusher.. yes they get a 3+ normal save and a 5+ str 6 on charge, tough 5, init 5 on charge but the cost is massive and with the crap tone of AP3 weapons these days a smart player is going to make you roll those 5+invs. now for 200 points i can have 10 wounds in 5 models or... i can have 12 wounds in 12 models... on the charge 20 attacks? at strength 6... or 36 attacks at strength 5. If crushers moved at a slightly higher speed than letters.. i'd have them. but i think its not worth choosing them over letters. now if im looking into this rock i will stand corrected like i said i have only played one game with deamons so im not claiming to know it all.

    And as for removing the plaguebearers for crushers.. my plague bearers did horrible in the game. But it was kill points, im assuming that they are meant to be a unit thats either a) a meat shield or b)impossible to move from objectives so im not going to rule them out yet. Any other thoughts?

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    A wall is normally considered difficult terain rather than impassible. Units can go over/through it, they just have their movement reduced and inititative dropped to 1. But depends what you decide before the game starts. When playing daemons you should always agree before the game what exactly is impassible/dangerous/difficult/area. For monstrous creatures, bloodcrushers, etc always put them on square bases since the rules allow it (you can use any base they come with) and they have a smaller deepstrike footprint. Also helps if you ever decide to play fantasy battle, since monstrous creatures usually opperate independantly and you can't really use movement trays for them.

    I like your list and if you hadn't lost 2 units to DS mishaps, it sounds like you might have won. You were effectively 355+ points down on your opponent, so don't get too upset. You need to accept glitches like this if your playing daemons, it's all part of their random nature, but they are fairly infrequent and you can minimise them by defining terain, using smaller bases and pactice. I'd prefer another unit of Fiends instead of the Flamers, but that's just me. Also your monstrous creatures are a little too points heavy for a 1500 game (though fine for 2000 point) - I prefer Tzeentch Heralds with chariot, bolt, MOS & legion and Tzeentch Princes with bolt. Cheaper, so you loose less if you do mishap. Either work best in pairs and you can probably replace your 2 monstrous creatures with two of each with a few tweaks.

    The thing you're missing when comparing Bloodcrushers to Bloodletters is the toughness (5 vs 3) and wound allocation (assuming you upgrade the crushers). 12 Bloodletters are usually down to 4-6 by the time they are able to assault, but 4 Bloodcrushers will probably still be 4 Bloodcrushers (though 2-3 of them might be on only 1 wound) if they face the same amount of incoming fire.

    I'd keep with Plaguebearers, though units of 6 wouldn't be noticeably worse than 7 if you ever need to free up a few points. You're right that in kill point games they don't do much. In objective games you'll find they are much more effective. But even in kill point games, the disruption effect is often worth it - the opponent usually has to commit far more points than the Plaguebearers are worth to get rid of them, which makes the rest of your units more survivable. And with poison they are sometimes surprisingly effective in close combat.

  7. #6
    Member Grave Guardian's Avatar
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    bloodletters are toughness 4 i have thought about the tzeentch herald before... its just the converting process im weary of =]. im playing a game this sunday and hopefully on during this week so ill update on how i'v done then lol are tzeentch heralds that good? and what makes for a good tzeentch DP?

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    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cannibal View Post
    A wall is normally considered difficult terain rather than impassible. Units can go over/through it, they just have their movement reduced and inititative dropped to 1. But depends what you decide before the game starts. When playing daemons you should always agree before the game what exactly is impassible/dangerous/difficult/area.
    The thing you're missing when comparing Bloodcrushers to Bloodletters is the toughness (5 vs 3) and wound allocation (assuming you upgrade the crushers).
    Cannibal is absolutely right about the wall. It is not dangerous terrain unless it is a spiked wall etc AND you decided it was dangerous before the game starts. Even a ruined building isn't dangerous unless you specify it at the beginning of the game. So if the Bloodthirster scattered into a ruin, most times, it still isn't a mishap. Every Daemon player should make sure they know all the Dangerous terrain before they play; it is a must!
    As for the Bloodletters toughness, it isn't 3 it's 4. You must be thinking of Daemonettes who's toughness is 3. Plaguebearers do have their uses; they excel in holding objectives due to the Feel no pain and toughness. Just remember about Plaguebearers: you can reroll all failed wounds if your Strength is equal to or higher than their toughness. Just look up poison attacks in the rulebook on page 42. I usually play kill points, so I don't like using them. I have a ton of Bloodletters and they are my go to troop facing any armoured army.

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    yeah i know that plaguebearers re-roll to wound. their problem is they alway's hit last pretty much and are a little bit easier to shift if your facgin a unit with power weapons but i still like them... for objectives they will pretty much always stand their ground. and like i said i rolled a 2 on the mishap table = unit destroyed. i was just unlucky. he landed in difficult terrain roll for movement etc Difficult terrain becomes Dangerous terrain when deepstriking.. so i didnt decide it was dangerous it became dangerous due to deep striking. It was unlucky. wasnt due to me being stupid about what we said terrain was at the start of the game.. was just that i deepstriked into terrain which was difficult became dangerous... it happens

  10. #9
    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grave Guardian View Post
    yeah i know that plaguebearers re-roll to wound. their problem is they alway's hit last pretty much and are a little bit easier to shift if your facgin a unit with power weapons but i still like them... for objectives they will pretty much always stand their ground. and like i said i rolled a 2 on the mishap table = unit destroyed. i was just unlucky. he landed in difficult terrain roll for movement etc Difficult terrain becomes Dangerous terrain when deepstriking.. so i didnt decide it was dangerous it became dangerous due to deep striking. It was unlucky. wasnt due to me being stupid about what we said terrain was at the start of the game.. was just that i deepstriked into terrain which was difficult became dangerous... it happens
    Sorry, I may have steered you wrong. It's not Dangerous terrain you mishap on as I said in error before, it is Impassable terrain only. If you land on Dangerous or Difficult, you take the Dangerous terrain test for the models that land in it. That's it. Your Bloodthirster landed in Dangerous terrain and should not have mishaped at all, he should have at most, taken a wound from flunking the Dangerous terrain test. Sorry, I should have been using the term "impassable" instead of "Dangerous" the whole thread. My bad.
    Last edited by andrewbeater; November 15th, 2010 at 18:08.

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    it appears your right and i have indeed lost nearlly a a 5th of my army that i did not need to loose and possibley cost myself the game. was only my first game of 5th ed 40k and i should have been more informed rather than use the guy i was playing with as a main source for the rules... Damn

    apalogies

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