Welcome to Librarium Online!
Let's face it, as a Daemon player, I'm a bust. I fold quicker than Superman on laundry day and I think there are more people like me who struggle with the unit selection, deployment, deep striking and strategies that are the key to winning at 40K. Hopefully the better, more experienced players can interact with the less experienced players to help with the several issues a lousy player like me faces.
1) Selection - Your best winning list isn't needed, because lets face it, we all have different models in different quantities and your list is different from all the others. Let's talk about unit sizes and consistency: Larger unit of troops or more smaller groups? Units you love or hate? Troops that are better against certain armies? Your favorite units in a nutshell.
2) Deployment - I'm not talking about the Deep Strike just yet, I'm talking how to split your army so that you don't get burned first by the Chaos Gods and then by your opponent for not putting out the right units out.
3) Deep Strike - Love it. Hate it. The Deep Strike. It is what puts Daemons in an advantage for unit deployment or curses it to scatter into oblivion. I've heard to Deep Strike close and I've heard to Deep Strike far away. In reality, I've tried just about everything and I still don't get it right. For me, I try to deep strike mid way behind cover most of the time, but usually scatter to the four winds. Then if it is a troop, they get shot to pieces. This is a common complaint, so a good strategy is really welcome. The only time I deep strike close, is if it is a Flamers unit and they can wipe out heavily armoured units with the Breath of Chaos if they are close to it.
4) Strategies - I love strategies; I'm weak on most levels of Daemonic play and this is no exception. I don't have the old Fateweaver / Bloodcrusher combo just yet, but I've heard it's good. Any other combos worth mentioning? Any tricks that you do to help you win? What gifts are good and not so good?
I'm finding that I cannot win against the new codexes at all such as Blood Angels and Space Wolves. I could almost never win against the Guard and the Space Marine players I know have adjusted to my army so I rarely win there. But I have wins against these with my new Chaos Space Marines. I hope you can help me and others that are struggling with your answers.
HQ: GUO+Flies, Herald o Tzeentch, chariot, legion, sorcery, bolt
Elites: 4-6 crushers with upgrades, 5-6 feinds with upgrade, 3 flamers
Troops: 6-8 PBs for objective sitting, 10 Horrors + changeling
Heavy: Prince MoT+Bolt, Prince MoN-nox-hide-gaze-flies
My list - uses the above
6 Crushers, 6 Feinds, 3 flamers
2x10 Horrors, 2x7 PBs
2xMoT Prince, MoN Prince
I bring down the Crushers (with the icon) and most of the shooty stuff first leaving the GUO, PBs and fiends in reserve along with the flamers who work well deepstriking from the icon. By bringing in the shooty stuff I can thin out threats to my first wave on arrival. Daemons are always at their most vulnerable on the first enemy shooting phase after your initial wave arrives. 50% of your army faces most of his. To counter this shoot the threats and deepstrike against a part of his force. If he splits up that's great as you can thin out most of the threats you face in an area. Most daemon armies are close combat but my force contains a higher proportion of shooting and it really helps.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
First of all: you can only have one Changeling, he is Unique.
HQ: Fateweaver, Herald of Tzeentch on Chariot
Elite: 6+ Bloodcrushers, 6 Fiends, 3 Flamers
Troops: 5 Horrors with bolt, 5 plague bearers
Heavy: Soulgrinder, Tzeentch Daemon Prince (bolt)
The units above will do wel in almost any situation, most other units in our codex can be very strong aswell, but require an experienced player and a good game plan.
I like small units of troops, since they are cheap and can easely be used as a meat shield for other (more important) units.
My list: (The one I use most)
Herald of Tzeentch (Chariot, bolt, legion, MoS)
3x 3 Flamers
2x 5 Horrors with bolt (1x changeling)
8 Horror, icon
3x Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (Bolt & Gaze)
I don't have a pre-determined way to split my army into different waves, it varies depending on my opponents and the mission. But often my prefered wave consists of: Fateweaver, 3xPrince, 1xFlamer and 1x5Horrors with changeling. However against armies with alot of shooting, I take more flamers to destroy/shake enemies to give Fateweaver a better chance of survival.
As you can see I tend to favor a strong prefered wave, with a very weak second wave. If I get the wrong wave, I try to deepstrike behind LOS blocking terrain, try survive untill the heavy hitters arrive and play for a minor victory/draw.
Like Madcat said, daemons are weakest after the first wave came down. So deepstrike your first wave smart. Try to deepstrike on one flank or in such a way the most dangerous elements of his army can't hit/see you. On tournaments terrain tends to be low/scare, so this will be difficult, but when playing friendly games, try getting 1 or 2 big pieces of terrain on the board.
A tear is only water, and a sigh is only air.
I do take a chance by stacking my favoured army half with the shooty stuff but the second half is ok if it arrives. The fiends get down and position themselves for a turn 2 charge. PBs can dig in and won't die too quickly. Flamers you can risk a close in deepstrike or deploy more safely behind LOS blocking terrain then wait for the enemy to approach or for more reinforcements. Flamers tend to be a suicide unit anyway so its no great surprise if they don't perform on occasion. The GUO is probably the most resilliant model in the game (for the points) so he should be fine as he is.
My shooty stuff is in the first wave but a lot of the resilliant stuff is in the second wave so like Leviatan says you can deepstrike further out and wait for the others.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
1. I like to use:
HQ: Fateweaver, Masque
Elites: Bloodcrushers, Flamers (I don't have any Fiends, but would like to use them in the future)
Troops: Plaguebearers (small squads of 5-6 just for objectives), Larger unit of Daemonettes
Heavy: 3x DP's (Wings, Tzeentch, Iron Hide, maybe bolt or breath)
5x Bloodcrushers - Icon
14x Daemonettes 196
3x DP - Bolt, Iron Hide, MoT, Wings
Less troops = less fear of rapid-fire. Besides, with Fateweaver, bloodcrushers, flamers and the DP's, the opponent will be ignoring my troops if they have any sense at all. My biggies and bloodcrushers are fairly survivable, especially if they can get into Fateweaver's bubble.
Plagues are min size and basically stays on a objective. They don't see much action.
2. I tend to play aggressive.
1st wave: Kairos, bloodcrushers, 3x DP's, 2x flamers or screamers (depending on whether I'm playing against mech or not)
2nd wave: Masque, 3x troops, 2x flamers or screamers
If the 2nd wave comes in, then they have to hide and drop a little further back (out of rapid-fire range and near cover).
3. I don't look at DS as a crutch to my army. It is simply a parameter of my army that I must abide by, thus I need to make the best of it. Now with a Fateweaver army, deepstriking together is even more important than then other builds as I need to get everyone as close to Fateweaver as possible.
Firstly, you DS Fateweaver to make sure he doesn't mishap. Then I DS the bloodcrushers, as they take up the most "real estate" and thusly requires the most amount of open space. Then deepstrike the rest. Usually I'll get about half of my army within Fateweaver's bubble (after running) but that's good enough. I guess I've been lucky that I haven't mishapped much....maybe once every few games and rarely with any of my valuable units.
4. While I haven't played a whole lot of games against many varied opponents, the strategy for my army is simple....just keep the army togething until I need to split them off. The Masque clumps them together for flamers or brings them into assault range for my daemon units.
Other competitive builds I've seen include 4 Tzeentch chariots, Fiends of Slaanesh, 5-man pink horror units with bolt and 3x Soulgrinders.
Last edited by jy2; December 8th, 2010 at 16:39.
Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2
tzeralds and bloodthirster
2 tzeralds on chariot etc.
2 * 5 fiends (only own ten, will get the last two later)
3 bloodcrushers (instrument, fury for wound allo)
3 * 7 PB's, sometimes horrors with changeling depends on mood...
2 MoT/bolt princes and one MoN very boosted prince
deployment: refused flank all of my forces in the above do one or more of three things, close combat, shoot or objective sit... Generally have 3/4 bolts in the first wave along with 3/4 MC in the first wave and zero or one troop choice in the first wave. Yes i take that chance. One main minus of the daemon army is that it is on foot as soon as it touches the ground... in the above army as much as possible is pretty fast or it can shoot or it objective sits. Besides the blood crushers. My blood crushers are pretty much fire magnet for 135 points, if they get to my opponent = great if not even better as the amoun of shooting he should have used means more important things survived. furthermore 3 bloodcrusher have a nice and small (relatively) ds footprint. First run is all about nicking his transports so i can get my closecombat troops in close, bolt is great for this. Second and on is about killing him in close combat, slingshotting fiends ahead of the army to prevent him from shooting or killing vehicles. Last turns, turbo charge tzeralds to objective, ds plaguebearers unto them.
remember that you dont divide your forces into waves before he has deployed, which is a major bonus as you should allways make up your mind depending on his forces and not on what you expected...
I really see a pattern of models that I just don't own and therefore it may be a reason why I'm not winning. Here's the models I own:
2- Daemon Princes
1- Khorne Herald on Juggernaught
1- Blue Scribes model (handmade)
10- Plaguebearers (with command squad)
8- Pink Horrors
1- Soul Grinder
2- Chaos Spawn ( I use for Fiends or Beasts of Nurgle)
(soon to have Herald of Tzeentch on Chariot)
I seems to me, many people use at least 3-6 Bloodcrushers and or Fiends and keep Troop levels low. I don't have Fateweaver or Bloodcrushers yet. I also tend to put my shooty types in my first wave and my heavier types in the second wave, but maybe I should rethink that and put some high powered units up in the first wave. Does anyone win with different unit combos?
Do people use the Masque and say a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with the Pavane and use their Pavane like the Lash of Submission trick used by Chaos Space Marines? I mean to drag units into the open and then Ordnance them with Soul Grinder or move a Walker so that his rear armor faces your unit with Bolt of Tzeentch? With two Pavanes, you could move at least one unit up to 12" in one turn (if hit by both the Masque and the Prince).
About my list, I do use a custom Pink Horror as a Changling, I just didn't mention it. I see that I need more Daemonettes, Pink Horrors, Bloodcrushers, Seekers, a Soul Grinder and Fateweaver. Some Fiends wouldn't hurt, but they are too expensive here anyway, so I may buy the Spawn model and proxy them as Fiends as someone suggested.