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"Its like a Tactica but its also like a book..maybe its a Grimoire?"
Right, over the past few days, i've been reading, playing and thinking lots about how the daemons work in 40k. I've been with them for about a year after moving on from tyranids. Now i'm entering into the 2nd year and i've already played alot of friendlies (30+) all 1500 pts, no tourneys though, didn't manage to catch any last year (due to exams!)
After a year with my daemons i've learnt many things and my style of playing has changed. Daemons to me are definitely one of the best armies (strong too), especially in looks. I want to start this post because I want to share what i think, what I've learnt and I want to ask you all to post experiences and give tips that i may not have given.
This post will not tell you the perfect strategy, it will not tell you how to beat every foe. What it will give you is an understanding of the daemons and how we can perform to our best. Daemons are a force to reckon with but the DS mishaps usually put people off. What i'm aiming for is to improve your metagame, i.e the post-game to game battle, thinking and playstyle.
I'm stepping in the footsteps of giants or just walking along with them, taking notes and learning. I'm not the best and i make mistakes but i learnt from these Things are open to debate, but keep it short and in another thread if you want to argue.
This is going to be long, so grab your coffee, snacks and a comfy chair.
Chapter 1 : Daemonic Psychology
The warp powers are split such that there are 4 gods with obvious different qualities.
K for Khorne : Blood-god thus amazing cc skills and awesome looking red models, plus everyone has power weapons - no more armor svs
N for Nurgle : Pestilence, death, decay, attrition will always win the day, especially with poison weapons
T for Tzeentch : Magic, Illusions, Thunderbolts and warpfire, ranged warfare is the way to go.
S for Slannesh : Glamours, rending and speed, they will flank and cause chaos. Hitting and running never could get better than this.
So now you know the 4 Chaos Gods, which are you? Me, I'm a Khorne-Nugle guy, defending stoutly with my PB's then striking hard with my BC's. Any combination will work but if you want a mono-army, there are downsides.
A mono-army is an army that only follows one chaos god, using its strengths to overcome the negatives. The most popular is an all Nurgle army built around epidemius. I've played mono armies before and i've found something out. In a 2v2, 2 Mono-armies function very well. Especially if it is Nurgle CSM and Nurgle Daemons (after 20 kills, all range shots from CSM ignore armor saves). Now I've thought abit on this matter but i have come to the conclusion that;
K>N>T>S>K (its a circle, going clockwise)
in terms of mono-army battles.
If you pit an monoKhorne army to a battle with a monoNurgle army, then Khorne will come up top as powerweapons ignore FnP, furthermore, Khorne WS is so much better than Nurgle's
If you put a Nurgle to Tzeentch, the high toughness will beat out the range attacks, especially with FnP, plus tzeentch has worse WS.
Tzeentch is better than slannesh as by the time slannesh gets into contact with any Tzguys, they would be dead due to the number of range attacks tz has.
Slannesh is better than Khorne, due to speed, H&R and rending.
Now you may debate about this, but it's just a general overview. Khorne will not always beat Nurgle, it depends on the skill of the player, the game type, army composition, etc. (other factors). SO the next time you play another daemon army, remember your weaknesses. One that knows what he is weak in will always compensate for another - everyone has to have something right?
Chapter 2 : The Legions of Chaos
No this chapter is not me explaining what every unit does best. Many people have done that and there are very good ones already on this forum. Especially the Daemon Prince tactica which helped me immensely decided what my Nurgle DP's should be.
What this chapter will talk about is how different Daemon units make an impact on the table top and how your opponent will react to it - crapping in his pants, crying, sighing, jumping out of a window..etc.
-Knowing how your opponent plays is important and thats what makes friendlies sometimes harder, for the fact that your friend has played you many times and knows how you play (your little dirty tricks and all).
Sometimes you can tell the type of person from what army he plays and how he deploys.
The most common example are Space Marine players - many play it due to it being the first army they are exposed to or just like the all-roundness of it. From this we can deduce that the person will have no obvious strengths and weaknesses, so what we need to do is spread his forces out - how we do that, i'll talk about it later.
The first thing we should talk about is not the enemy but ourselves, what are our strengths and weaknesses - (dual armies will take from the best of both worlds but less units from each.)
Khorne : Reckless, Aggressive play style, up close and personal. Please, no cowering and hiding behind barriers and little pieces of hilly terrain.
Nurgle : Passive, Defensive and line holders. Attrition will destroy any army in time..
Tzeentch : Range support, fire platforms and our only ranged tank destroyers. (but getting to the rear of a vehicle is hard, even impossible sometimes..but only sometimes). We must be like tzeentch himself, be crafty, weigh options and make the opponent give you an opening for a final decisive blow.
Slannesh : Here we know speed is king...or queen. Hitting and running into cover..to assault again. Rending gives a wound, ignoring armor saves and is very painfull. It is still possible to take down a tank, with fiends and KoS.
So we know how our army might play like. My Nurgle - Khorne army plays something like this.
Turn 1 - Defend
Turn 2 - Advance and Survive
Turn 3/4 - Let hell loose.
I use the defensive strength of Nurgle to my advantage and then advance to draw attention away from my quite vulnerable deepstriking Khornate troops.
Take a piece of paper, write down what you think is good about your army (its strength), could be its speed, power, defense, etc. Once that's done, write down your weaknesses, could be that..too fragile, too slow, bad HtH etc. Now keep this paper with you whenever you play..just dont let your enemy see it.
Remember the weaknesses, store them in the back of your mind so when you deploy your army, you know how to compensate for it. E.g don't just DS your PB's right infront of enemy tanks and troops, yes we have FnP and T6 but even that will die under heavy concentrated fire + assault charge if they get in range. What you should do is DS them just far enough (near cover if possible) so that Rapid fire will not be so much of a problem and that the majority of the enemy will not shoot at everything.
Next is to see your army composition. Smaller groups always work better. More groups (7-6 in each) will add bulk and spread the enemies fire out. Big troops are not that efficient, too tedious to move around, plus the bigger the target the more likely someone will fire at it, threat depiction. Is your army working effeciently? what are you having trouble with? If mech is troubling you, maybe your lacking alittle heavy power - thus you need more MC's. If you're core destoryers are dying, maybe you took too many troops or lack the elites number to draw enemy fire.
What is threat? If anyone here has played WoW or any MMORPG, threat is the amount of danger you pose - thus drawing more creatures or in this case enemy fire to u
To see this, put yourself into the opponents shoes. Lets say..you're an IG player. I deploy my GUO and 4 squads of 7 PB's. Which would you shoot first? The GUO duh..or maybe the PB with an icon.
So threat in W40k term is the firing priority of a player. Your positioning of your units also plays a factor. If you have 2 squads of PB's in a line, facing the IG player, one squad is behind cover while another is in the open, you would shoot at the one without cover, i hope, right? I'm not saying you should deploy everything behind cover but you should use it to your advantage.
He is a general view of threat in the 40k world. Highest to lowest
1.MC's or Tanks (mostly heavy support)
4.Fast attack/Troops(depending on what they are)
*This is a general view and does not take into account the diff. unit types etc. Other factors like how close it is also increase threat.
Now lets look at the Daemon Army threat. Highest to lowest as per usual
1. HQ's (GUO, KoS, etc)
2. Heavy Support (SG and DP) / Elites
3. Elites (BC's, FoS, Flamers)
4. Troops / Fast attack
5. Fast attack
The reason HQ's are so high up the threat list is because,
1. you will usually put a HQ into the first wave
2. Heavy support will only pose the greater threat later in the game. (unless you put it first)
Now for the other units:
Elites sometimes pose a bigger threat due to the fact that the models are ownage and look amazingly cool. 12 BC's DSing near to an enemies army is eye popping and will definately draw lots of fire. Troops are more dangerous than Fast attack in our case..due to the one fact, most people don't know what Screamers do and that they only see khorne's hounds as eye candy as opposed to 9 bloodletters.
So why are our HQ's and Heavies so threatening?
Because they are mostly MC's and they will mow down anything if left undisturbed. Plus the models are so huge and detailed, its hard not to look at them and say "kill it". Alarms go off in your brain when an opponent DS's a GUO right in front of your army. The MC status means that are wounds negate armor save, they roll for tank armor penetration strength at 2d6+S in CC, plus they have Move Through Cover and Relentless.
The other factor like i've said is the cool model, extreme conversions (for chariots) and the fact the soul grinder is so bloody big...unless you buy the GUO from Forge World..which is ridiculously HUGE. Plus our HQ's come with upgrades that make them very threatening stats wise.
Last part of this chapter explains external threat assessment. Meaning what other factors increase your threat:
1 . How close your model is to the enemy (POSITION)- Closer (more firepower headed your way), further (probably more Blasts and heavy weapons that can reach that far)
2. How well your models are covered by terrain (COVER)
3. How big the model is (SIZE) (we all shoot at the biggest thing we usually see, if we don't really know the enemy's army that well)
4. How well the model is painted (GLAMOUR) - it is a known fact that if you only paint some units very well and leave the rest black, the painted units will die first...unless your opponent is very sharp.
5. Type of model (Army type) - If you run a Chaos Divided army, you will find that anything Khorne usually gets killed first due to the plain fact, it is menacing and its red. We all have this animal instinct to see red, literally since its a warm colour and sticks out. Lastly you usually find that your smaller tzeentch models painted dark blue are last to die because..dark blue is a neutral - cold colour and does not attract attention that much.
Chapter 3 : Daemon's Bane - Warp Traveling (Deepstriking)
If you've ever played COD:BlackOps, you will know the zombie level where the Demon Dogs appear. When they warp in they look around for awhile and decide on who to attack giving you a spilt second to shoot them before them come at you.
Similarly, because GW made it that way, Daemons suffer from the warp transition and come out a little bit dazed as they take in their surroundings. This to us is the Deepstrike phase of our little Daemon lives. Now pretend you are a daemon and this is your first trip from the warp. You travel from a chaotic world where there are no physics and anything can happen to a world where there are plants, enemies..like a different universe, plus you don't know where your ending up, thus Mishaps do happen and you could die. This example serves as a thought to help you visualize that in a turn based game, transition from warp to reality is not easy and that it takes time to adjust, so no movement and assault, but we can strangely run and shoot. -_-|| (to our advantage though!)
Now there is alot of hate to Deepstrike, saying its unfair that the death of the GUO would lose you the game before it could even do anything..but thats the price of a Daemons life and when you signed on to this army, you took the AWESOME POWER OF CHAOS over the destructive power of Deep striking. Daemons are very very powerful and if GW had allowed us to deploy by DS without Mishaps or scatter, every and yes, EVERY army will lose to us. It is only fair that such powerful beings can be sent back to the warp by a bad roll or a mishap.
Deep striking is risky, like how in reality war is if you want to have drop troops flying over the enemy or (in the future when we have warp teleporting technology), teleporting into battle. There is a chance we won't make it. There are ways to reduce the no. of casualities though :
The most obvious and pointed out by many is - TAKE AN ICON.
Around 25pts each icon, it is pricey but ensures your Daemon Legions won't scatter within 6" of an icon. I usually take 1 with my PB's but most people won't due to quite high points cost - 25pts can get you Unholy Might for a DP or a chariot for your herald, etc. Icons are useful yes, but the squad they are in will come under heavy fire and the more icons you have will result in more points only being used in the short-term and earning you less men for safety.
Next is HOW you deepstrike.
The maximum distance you can scatter is 12". Now think about the chance of landing on the spot with is 1/3 of the time - 33% of the time. Thats not too bad really. Now lets say you scatter into Impassable terrain, enemy or friendly models.
PLS NOTE ( difficult and dangerous terrain only results in a dangerous terrain test (which is 1 wound for a roll of 1 - it is not scary)
Right, so you get a Mishap - to be destroyed its a 1 or 2, to be placed somewhere stupid by the enemy is 3-4 and to be put back into reserve is a 5-6. This means that like getting a hit, there is a 33% chance of your daemon dying BUT a 67% chance of survival. Plus its not like you will always scatter into impassable terrain or enemy models..its mostly DSing onto your own models that causes this problem.
Now don't be scared of terrain. Remember what's difficult,dangerous and impassable.
Difficult and Dangerous only results in a 1/6 chance of a wound which you can still save - due to invul saves, WOOHOO! 1/6 is bout a 17% chance of getting wounded..take this and the invul save and its less than 10% chance of your model getting wounded depending on the invul save. SO WHAT THIS MEANS IS>>DON"T BE AFRAID OF DSing near terrain. Actually don't be afraid at all, the chaos gods will take care of you, you still need to use your brain though. ALSO it means that you CAN deepstrike into terrain without risk of losing your GUO ( if all available space is taken up by other units ) near to the enemy and in cover. This really is great as you can get your guys into cover even if they scatter into it and be happy at the same time!
I know some people who say put your units 8-10" away from most things, yes i do believe this helps quite abit but when it does not apply, taking a calculated risk is the best way to ensure survival. I make it a habit to deploy the most important things first. So in my first wave, the GUO will always go first - so that my own troops don't get in the way and it gets a great position. Think about it like in chess. IF you are to lose your Queen and your Bishop at the same time, which would you give up? For me the Queen because in the future it will be able to take down more pieces. Daemons always come with risks, accept that and your game would be better.
This is also a very big game decider. Many people do not know the true power of how terrain can shape a battle. In friendly games, you usually put down the terrain, alternating or getting a 3rd person to put it down for you. In tourneys or championship games, its done by the organizer (or so i heard). Cover saves are not as great as they used to be but the true power of terrain is how they affect the game :
Unit in cover - any unit assaulting the unit in cover has its I reduced to one, which means that you will hit last in the next turn (unless you have offensive grenades, which negate this.) , you still get assault bonuses though (unless they have defensive grenades)
Difficult terrain - slows units, unless they have a rule ignoring this like Move through cover.
Dangerous - any unit in this terrain has to take a Dangerous test. which means that on a roll of 1 you suffer a wound that no save except invul save can save. ALL the terrain is changed to this when you Deepstrike but since we all have invul saves, this isnt that bad.
Impassable - can't go through this, can't go over this..(cept for certain stuff, thinking bout skimmers). I hate this type of terrain, but its great, dividing up areas of the board or funneling enemy troops around it. But DSing into this is annoying, especially if the impassable terrain is BIG or covers a large area.
Now you know the terrain, next is to decide how to deepstrike around them or to reduce your chance of a mishap. Don't be scared of Dangerous terrain and be confident, success will find you. DSing in an open area is very safe. DSing next to a dangerous terrain is equally safe, albeit a tad risky. JUST don't pls..deepstrike right in front of the enemy. I know this will create a huge threat but on your first turn, this is a huge waste of resources and risky too, scattering into the enemy is not a nice way to die (because 1. you make the enemy feel more confident that his puny army can crush you and 2. you just took a big gamble..which would've only lasted till the next turn.) Be smart about your troop deployment, don't bunch them up or DS them too close to each other. Most of my mishaps are due to this.
THE TROJAN HORSE>>THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB, or should i say the
T6,W5,4+invulFnP SACRIFICIAL LAMB.
Sometimes a sacrifice is needed on the second turn and by sacrifice i don't mean a mishap sacrifice, what i mean is a sturdy unit like a GUO to get some cover, and be a big threat - e.g by getting closer. I usually achieve this by moving all my existing units forward, to the enemy this looks like an advance but what it is, is making more room for your forces and getting your icon closer to the enemy. Yes, your GUO might die due to enemy fire, but at least he died to the enemy and not to the terrain. Besides T6 with 4+invul and FnP can take most stuff plus, it has 5 wounds...my god, he won't die so don't fret...unless the enemy shoots like 20 twin-linked lascannons at it. Besides if he does commits all his forces to kill that one GUO, the rest of your incoming 2nd wave forces will be hardly hit. Thus my Khornate Bloodcrushers will live to turn 3.
The sacrifice thing..isn't the best option and most of the time i like keeping my happy GUO on the board, it makes me happy and papa nurgle happy too. So the last thing for this Chapter is Tanks and Army types you face.
This is still in testing. But in theory and ..it does work. (tried it against SM and IG so far) What works is DSing in such a way that the enemy has to turn his tanks to face you. Most people don't put sponsons on IG tanks..and its annoying that turrets can turn 360, but the enemy sometimes forgets that and thats where you try and goad the enemy to turn his tank - making a vulnerable spot on its side and rear to shoot at (if you are running tzeentch). Hard to do, really hard. Tanks are hard machines to deal with, but they are not gods, like us Chaos, so they will succumb.
Lastly is the Army type you face
DSing is very calculative, and risky. In addition the type of enemy you face can change how you DS. Against CCHorde armies, not too close, because you will get charged. Same for Shooty/shootyHorde armies, not too close too, because of Rapidfire. Mech armies are hard to deal with so take the pain of being large blasted like a chaos god and DS in a great place, the middle zone (like in the 15-20" from tank). This is very experimental and it probably won't matter at all truthfully but it helps knowing how to DS sometimes. But for the most part, you should be safe as long as you don't drink and Deepstrike - like driving. Make the best choice, deepstrike, accept the loss or regret.
Chapter 4 : The Art Of Daemonic Warfare
As per usual, you can shoot down all hopes of a perfect army list or a grand amazing strategy that will alway bag you a win. No what i'll put here is basically a pre game thing, which includes alittle bit of enemy deployment and how your game could come off like, explaining it in turns.
First off, there is no such thing as a perfect army. You cannont be amazing in everything. I lead a Khorne - Nurgle Army, this means i lack in shooting power and range damage. But what i have is a solid defense and a Furious Charge. XD
Anyways like i said there is a downside to everything. E.g SM is low number of unit count on table. IG is troop vulnerability. For us, if you take 1 god, its the downsides of the god(master of its world). 2 gods makes a great army but you get less troops from each god (best of both worlds but master of none). 3 gods, means a diverse hybrid force, all -rounding army that can take on all roles but won't exactly excel in anything..unless you have a goal for the army. 4 gods..you know the phrase "too many cooks spoil the broth?" Here it is, 4 gods, cannot work together - no wonder Abbadons Blackcrusade has been screwed 13 times. It is a viable cool option to included every aspect but by doing so, unless its a huge point game (3k++), you open up other weaknesses. I think 2 gods is enough. Don't focus too much on this just choose 2, then expand from there.
So you have an army of hungry bickering daemons all vying for first blood. Now its time to lead them into battle and let all hell loose..its quite literal.
How you do this is by always splitting our forces in 2. Sending a first assault wave then a support wave. There is a piece of fluff in the Codex that talks about a battle between daemons and Space Marines (Blood Angels i think). It goes something like that. So lets talk about the first wave.
1st wave contents - what should it include?
I believe that the first wave is an assault wave..or the calm before the storm. For me as a khorne-nurgle player, nurgle will go first. Similarly if you run Tzeentch, put the shooty stuff here. Khorne and Slannesh can wait alittle bit more..but if you are impatient, put a small squad here, like 1-2 only. because you want to see how he moves out. It is very..tempting to put all your forces here but like the saying goes "Don't put all your eggs into one basket" It is true. Even though the roll is 3+ to get the first one is easy enough, you might get the other and it results in only 1 troop or little bits and pieces of your mighty force coming out at a time. Thus the first wave should include strudy/shooty units to soak up or reduce enemy fire. Create threat and divide enemy forces
This is the support wave. Bulk up your forces. Most Khorne, Slannesh, support fire from Tzeentch and Heavies should mostly go here. Your starting forces can deploy, but if your scared, but your 2 DP's there to soak up or destroy more forces - depending on what they are. On the 2nd turn the DS roll is 4+ which is quite ok. 66% of the time your forces will deploy. The 3rd is 3+ and so on till 5 when they will automatically come in.
Be reminded that it was just a brief general statement on how to divdie your forces. Pls comment on how you divide and give tips. Because i run a Khorne - Nurgle army. +some Tzeentch, i'm not sure how a Slannesh - Tzeentch army functions. I truthfully dislike Slannesh after reading Dark eldar novels. (but they are fun to paint and i love posing the daemonettes) In addition, as pointed out by many already, you don't have to divide your forces till the start of the first turn. This means you get to see his army and think about how you divide. (someone give some examples because i'm unsure of how to phrase it) Depends mostly on enemy composition and how he would react to certain things coming onto the table
Alright we've got through that now lets talk about how a game would go. Break it up into turns as usual, our army is mostly late game punisher. It works best when everything is finally on the table, but there are times it just doesn't happen.
If you choose to go first, it does't really matter as badly as you going second, just choose one. I know there is a debate about this but really, as pointed out by people, by letting him go first, he can actually get a better firing position and gets a better coverage of the board. This is bad, because in a capture game, he can get to points faster, he's got a turn to move without interference. Second he can get key units to cover. So it weigh the costs and choose to go first or second. Like i said alot of times, there are risks to everything.
Right turn 1 is all about Defending and Survival of the fittest - to me that is. To tzeentch players its the shooting gallery. Basically get your units down safe. Pray to the dice gods and chaos gods not to scatter you and get to some cover at least. This will bide you for a while, keep your confidence high. The next turn is when you roll for Support. So get a great position to advance next turn.
Hopefully everything went fine, maybe a few scattered and if unlucky 1 mishap, maybe lost a troop. Its okay. Keep going, its not the end of the world, you still have half your army. So now that your friends are coming? what do you do? roll for them to come! 4+ and they're here. 66% of the time. So if you have an icon, maybe put all of them there, if you think you're unlucky today (but beware of large blasts) or flank them if you're feeling lucky. Now advance carefully with your first wave to put on the pressure. Shoot too. You will take casualties, but after a while, you'll deal with it.
Turn 3 - 4
Your guys should all be here with the 3+ or 2+ roll. If they are not..well nothing you can do. So lets say you have your whole army here. CHARGE! After turn 2, your big home run hitters should be here and its time to bring on the pain! Burn! Maim! Kill! your way to whatever the game's objective is. Your MC's should be wrecking-immobilising tanks, taking out key units. Your elites taking down their elites and HQ's plus valuable troops. Your troops should be there helping or capturing objectives. The SG or DP's - point them somewhere and destroy something. Always just have something to kill/destroy. Anything that annoyed you? Crush it. Anything that owned a whole squad of PB's by some lucky blast? Annihilate it. Hit hard and at key units. Example IG is the command squad and tanks.
( Now i know this may be too much but, someone help me post some key units we could take down during battle, I know some, but have yet to properly face tau or orks, so i cannot comment on it yet. )
The 5th turn..
Well you just hopefully killed everything and won the game. Congrats!
So that's bout it for the game. there are infinite possibilities/realities on how the game could've gone. But main thing is. You should've had fun and laughed with your friend/opponent. Take your time to know him and basically, although you may want to win..badly, it will come in time. Assess what went wrong, maybe talk with the guy after the game, learn more. Talk to other daemon players too. Basically, don't take losing too hard. There are more opportunities to win. Don't say you suck or the army is crap or his list is too imba. Learn! Takes time, but be humble. I learnt that - through alot of stuff and not just w40k. I will be adding more stuff here in the future as more people post and comment. Hopefully building up sections and improving core gameplay. Going into details is too much for just 1 person to achieve but as a collective whole we can think up something.
Chapter 5 : "Think like a LoC, Hit like a BT, Defend like a GUO and Run like a KoS"
Right..the chapter title, is not my motto! but it's a nice one to remember for the fun of it. I think i've gone through most of the stuff i wanted. Maybe left out certain points of interest but so far this will be the last chapter. - Until i add chapter 6, a collection of FAQ and other stuff. Chapter 7 - will be painting. I've got some stuff ready
What's in this chapter? well..its like a nifty section reminding you how great Daemons are and why we play them. Build confidence and gives you some tips, also little tricks you can do. In addition i will touch upon "knowing thy enemy" and "know thy army". sounds corny yes, but i couldn't think of anything esle. Suck it jkjk you know i love you guys.
Kay, lets get going
DAEMON PROPAGANDA - On the voxbox going out to convert people to Chaos
Basically, everyone turns to evil because it is fun, is amazing and just really, the only time evil deeds don't kill you. So the badasses basically get converted into evil IG players, the evil villains become CSM players but the true pain and darkness of the multiverse and the huge big thorn in the imperium is us, the CHAOS DAEMONS, legions upon legions of raw chaos energy made into living engines of destruction by our all - powerfull chaos gods.
Daemons are godly in battle and anyone can tell you the most important part of daemons? Is that - The enemy will not know what you are doing, ever! Even to you its slightly unpredictable but at least you know what's going on and how everything works to your advantage. Being unpredictable results in the opponent only guessing what you're up to and the counter will come to late to him. Whereas with usual armies, the top 3 usual builds will already have counters. Everything has a counter..but to us, the possibilities are endless, why? because everything in our blasted codex can kill for nuts! Except the Beast of Nurgle..which is..underpowered. Same could be said for other armies but ours would still run efficiently even. There are just some units in other codexes that truthfully are rather very useless (although GW denies that..which i believe to an extent)
Daemons are awesome why?
- Invul Save
- Eternal Warrior - no instant death
- Deep striking - last moment able to contest a far away objective with some luck and skilled dice rolling plus more benefits
- Unpredictable deployment and constantly changing tactics.
- The Models are BEAUTIFUL, AMAZING AND GORGEOUS. Who would not want them?
- Now with the plastic models, they are inexpensive to collect. Yay
- Save space on your shelf and easy to pack. No big fat baneblades or long fragile vendettas, just one hard bitch to lug around - the Soul Grinder. The pointy stuff breaks badly and i lost 2 spikes already .
- Forge World Models actually really make a great investment - because it really is an accurate size of a HQ Daemon, the LoC, GUO, etc. Really amazing on the table and display.
- Magnetise the bases...and YAY! we get a Fantasy army too! Best of both worlds. So save money and get to play both games at the same time.
- Daemons are fun to play with, just don't get so serious with them.
Haha hope that perked you up! Smile and let loose when you play daemons. I won't the about the negatives because its not good and truthfully it doesn't matter. IF you're upset with daemons then rest..collect like eldar and get frustrated with them then come back to us.
Now that thats done, we can get on to the "know thy enemy" section
So like it says, know your enemy. Like i've said, if you've played against some like a 100 times, you've probably got some strategy to beat him or you know his weakness. Thats it you see. So play against more armies you have difficulty with. Just keep playing is what most people would say. So far i've had many games against SM, IG (both mech and infantry horde), Necron (monolith is irritating and cheap for 300 pts) and ..well thats it XD I've played my own tyranid army against myself with a help of a friend and against other daemon players too. I have yet to fight orks, tau, inquisition, the new dark eldar and CSM. Eldar i've only fought in a small 850 game. But basically after fighting everything, you know what's gonna usually come at you. Thus the game would be easier. Sit down and chat with your friends after a game. Give them tips to use against your daemons. Why help them? BECAUSE they are your friends and if you don't help them fight you, the usual mob you fight will get easier and easier as you improve. Therefore help them and tell them tactics they could use against you. Like i helped my IG friend out, getting him some chimeras (i love painting them) and it got harder. Keep improving
Think about it in bodybuilding terms. If you keep pumping the same weight over and over again, sure you may get definition, but no mass, it also gets easier. So basically put this in our terms is that, if you keep playing against the same damm easy com, then you will not improve or bulk up. Thus push yourself and fight a harder opponent, go for the hardcore nightmare com/player and try it against him. Lose or win, you'll learn things for sure. Get a dedicated bunch of 4 close friends and keep pumping at it.
So thus you know your enemy.
Last part (phew finally, this took me the whole afternoon to write.)
"Know thy army" also, "Know thy self"
No these are no commendments, nor orders, but just a guideline. I always take the time to read the codex, getting to know the fluff and getting immersed in the stats and weapons. Don't just re-read the codex a 1000 times and think that you have it. Like in "Honour Guard" by Dan Abnett. Gaunt reads through Saint Sabbat's Scriptures but does not always get it. The monk Zweili Then explains its not about reading the text over and over, its about understanding it.
So ask me how i understand it? We can't always understand everything but what we can is know a few tricks of the trade.
Firstly remember the stats and useful stuff like What Blessing of the Bloodgod truly does. Secondly remember how each unit in your army works. Test new stuff out all the time. Like in a friendly game, DS a GUO into the enemy and see if it can withstand the punishment, etc. Keep testing, and soon you know just how to run your army. Like a pilot in his favorite plane, get used to the controls and it'll be like muscle memory.
Don't just read our codex too, remember the Rulebook rules too. But don't live by its cause..those who live by the rulebook die by the rulebook too.
The tricks of the trade:
1. GUO - Is an MC, thus this ignores the SnP rule. Woohoo
2. Don't forget to use the special powers of tzeentch and slannesh every turn.
3. You can Deep Strike into Dangerous terrain, don't be afraid of Terrain!
4. Use the huge models to cancel out line of sight and give cover saves
5. Remember the additional stats of each weapon of each god, khorne has power weapons, what do they do? ignore armor
6. RUN! really run, cause in the shooting phrase most things don't shoot.
* I will add more here soon!
Right be devious, after all you're the chaos, your mean and seek to destroy everything.
Now last thing about your army. Paint them nicely, treat them amazingly and give them names! I can't stress on how giving them names will improve the gaming experience and making it more fun..to me, a named unit will often perform better than a unamed one. Call your GUO anything you want, i call him Graug the Godfather. Makes it all the better and it actually makes you care about your guys because they have names. You know who they are. Like in the Imperium - a commissar who doesn't know the names of the troops is no worthy commissar to me.
"Know thy self"
Well do some soul-searching, find out about yourself and thus you will find your playstyle. In addition you will find your weaknesses and compensate for them. Me? i'm reckless so..with my nurgle i compensate that with steadfast defence. Know your playstyle and form your army around it. Good luck
"Sometimes the Grox gets you, sometimes it doesn't" - Commissar Hark (Honor Guard)
Like i said in this lengthy post, i will be adding more too after you guys post comments and i find time to write another lengthy post about painting, naming and going into details. I find that this is a rough guide to how to play and improving your metagame. Hope you learnt new stuff and keep improving. Here's some stuff to comment on and i need help with
- Need some details from a Tzeentch-Slannesh player on how his army works
- Need some Unit tricks and tricks for the "tricks of the trade section"
- Comments on how this helped you, did it improve how you play? What do you think about daemons? etc.
- Need some more experiences with fighting other armies (tau, eldar, etc) thus i can finally compile an accurate "SMITE THE ENEMY" part
- Add on whatever you think is useful and helpful. Please no trolling.
- What you think needs improvement in your army and what you found wrong
- that's bout all i can think off
SO THATS THAT! hope you guys find this helpful. Now i need to finish painting my Bloodcrushers, still have 6 more left to paint, sigh. I'll add the other sections next time.
+++ You know the fluff about the "Guardian of the maze" on pg 12 of the Daemon Codex in the little box on the bottom right. It says a challenger disguised in the guise of a young girl with a little black dog managed to pass through all the gates. I found out who the girl was after a while. Its Dorothy from the Wizard of OZ. Yay
Last edited by Profileseven; January 8th, 2011 at 15:21. Reason: Minor grammatical and layout mistakes
Mors nos angeli, Sanguis sanguinem deus.
Are your fingers sore? About Deep Striking, here's something else to think about: You can scatter up to 12" that's true, but you also have to consider the footprint size of your unit and that you can only come within 1" of an enemy unit. If your unit footprint lands within that 1" margin or your footprint lands on friendlies or in impassable terrain, then you mishap. If you think that you can place your deep striking unit 12" away from an enemy and be safe, you are wrong. Especially with a unit like a Soul Grinder who's footprint is 5" across. If you put Soul Grinder at 12" to the center of it's footprint and then scatter toward you enemy, you must scatter under 2 1/2" for the footprint plus 1" away from your enemy or Under 8 1/2". To be safe, you must place Soul Grinder 13" away from your enemy measured from the outside of his footprint. Same with units of troops; once one is placed, the rest are circled tightly around it after the deep strike scatter is rolled. This again makes a footprint of an additional 1-2" depending on troop size. I found out the hard way when this happened to me just last week. I had 10 pink horrors come down within 2" of the enemy. I should be safe right? Wrong! Once I placed the Horrors in circles around the first one, the unit was too close to my opponent and it was a mishap. I hate mishaps, can you tell?
Firstly yes, my fingers are sore. Secondly, i did forget about the footprint size of units but like i said, i didn't want to go into unit detail that much. The SG does have the biggest footprint in the game, but for the amount of firepower it gives you, the risk is worth it.
Footprint size, yes does affect DS abit and to remember each and every units footprint is great but truthfully, for the amount of effort put into measuring and talking about footprints, we could be putting that effort into other things. There is no changing DS at the moment until the 6th ed comes out so we have to live with the fact, Mishaps do happen.
I have yet to play a game without a single mishap or dangerous test. Cmon this is the 41st millenium, war is everywhere and casualties are sure to be taken. Teleporting into battle is not without risk, it has its up and downs. There is no way around it.
There is no safe spot, scatter is really determined by luck. You can calculate and assess the risks though. Like if it does scatter 12" towards the enemy - i'm screwed, but what is the likelihood of it happening? Yes circling is a pain, that's why smaller groups of models is great. 10 horrors in a group is asking for it. By putting so many troops into a single unit is risky - you risk losing 10 horrors in an instant. So try putting them in groups of 6,7 or maybe even 8. I would go with 7 it worked for me before i made the switch to khorne-Nurgle only army.
I hope the guide helped you though. Daemons are a risk taking army, just like gambling! ..or Poker! Really think about it, luck determines what cards you get, but in poker, you gotta use your brain and some skill to win. Risk-taking is what this army really teaches us
And..yes i can tell you hate mishaps and deep striking, i read your other posts on the topic. I don't see any sense in complaining - sorry man, but thats the way it is, can't change the rules overnight, besides daemons are powerful as hell already and like i said in my writing up there, any army we face with a full force will die - that's why DS is here, to make it fair.
Mors nos angeli, Sanguis sanguinem deus.
Oh heck, my friend I wasn't dishing on your effort! You did a good job in your analysis. It's just Deep Striking is a giant kick in the crotch too me and I almost always lose a unit to it and that is why I expanded the topic. I can't stand the Deep Strike. If I can help just one person to Deep Strike better, my existence is worth while. I'm also glad you agree that there is no safe spot for you to Deep Strike to. I think a typical 1500 point game with moderate terrain is dangerous almost everywhere. This is why I don't understand when Daemon players say they almost never mishap. It seems so incomprehensible to me considering everyone must get a bad scatter roll from time to time.
a couple of things
first: good job was a nice read and you a several good points for people starting up their daemons.
second: the one thing that really jumped me in the face was your: "two gods are awesome, four gods are FUBAR"... in short... Well couldnt disagree more. Can't see why you wouldn't want the best from every god. Daemons are so powerfull and unforgiving cause they're specialist,every single one of them. This mean they're REALLY good at one thing maximum two things and thats that. So if you use a unit in the right way it will demolish your opponent. If you use it the wrong way you're the one recieving the kicking. Nurgle-khorne combo, sure thing, one combo that works well and respect people who choose few gods for theme, but don't think it's the wisest choice. Try meeting a mech army with yours... they will avoid you and nuke you to bits if your opponent has any brains. Furthermore, mech is probably what is played the most by people who can since tanks are really good in 5th. Slaanesh and tzeench has some of the best anti transport units in the game with heralds and fiends, futhermore, if you in a dual god army only run khorne -nurgle your ony fast units for chasing tanks are MC's with wings ie. very expensive. I bet that your army is very good at sitting on an obejctive and killing stuff when you charge, but when is it your opponent will allow this? when he is stupid or inexperienced... neither something you should plan for... Allways play on your opponents weakness, your opponent will do the same... I once ran a khorne nurgle army cause the stats of bloodletters are awesome and so on... then i met a mech CSM player who taught me the error of my ways and how tank shock really can mess up your game in an objective match...
So... in short, i disagree with your thesis on the different gods.
I like your points about DS and your meta game, great advice and thumbs up
rep given for effort
Last edited by Sirholy; January 9th, 2011 at 10:39.
Ya thats true, i have yet to run a chaos undivided list, but i was thinking that if all 4 gods came into play, it would be abit messy. But ya i shouldn't have shot it down. Thanks for the update! I'll try out all 4 gods soon when i have enough money for the slannesh bulk.
Mors nos angeli, Sanguis sanguinem deus.