Having Faith In Daemons: Helping the Noob - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    Having Faith In Daemons: Helping the Noob

    I only started Daemons about 13 months ago, when I first starting playing 40K. Daemons are my first love so to speak in 40k armies. The road to now has been a rocky one working with Daemons and I want to share some thoughts with some of you newer players who are trying to find their way with the Daemons.
    Thought #1: Daemons are hard to play compared to some other armies. Stick with it; you will find that in time you will be better at deep striking, deploying and picking a winning list. Success comes with time. Be patient.
    Thought #2: Daemons are NOT a weak or marginal army. They are much, much more. They have some units that are strong and for cheap points. Once you are more experienced, you will find multiple lists that are competitive with just about any army. I was once told that Daemons cannot beat the Imperial Guard. I can tell you after two consecutive wins over the Guard, that it is not true. Inexperienced players can make the Daemons look soft, but they are not in the right hands.
    Thought #3: It seems that every codex that is coming out have cool perks for Deep Striking. It is true. I finally understand that Daemons don't for a reason: if we did, they would have a huge advantage in deployment that may make our units more expensive to offset. Although mishaps are a fact of life for a Daemon player, experience will minimize them.
    Thought #4: Daemons can be tricky to master. They have an odd deployment, troops that seem one dimensional (ie: good at fighting, good at shooting, good at staying alive), four Gods with different attributes etc. If you are having problems winning, keep at it and try new things. I was losing badly and thought at one time I would have to give up Daemons. I added some Fiends, 2 Chariots of Tzeentch, added a Daemon Prince and lots of Pink Horrors then mixed up my list. I am now 6 for 6 in my last 6 - 1000 point games. I have beaten the Guard twice, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Orks and CSM.
    Thought #5: Ask for help and when you do, don't sound like you are complaining. Some forum members don't like it when it sounds like you are complaining. This forum has lots of experienced players who can help with proven lists and advice to get you going.

    If you are an experienced player and you have a thought that could help a new player along, please share it.


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  3. #2
    This is for the haters... CrownAxe's Avatar
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    Well put, plus it's nice to hear of your recent success.

  4. #3
    FW has all my cash leighjt's Avatar
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    well said.. i'm not quite as objective as you at the moment, but thats probably as i'm 0 - (lost count) mainly against Mech Eldar...

    I said in another post that i need lots of perspective.. so for the moment my Daemons are only going to come out for Apocalypse games... time to concentrate on another army and see if the time off brings anything back
    Current Army Status - Chaos - 15000 points, Orks (BadMoonz) - 3000 Points - Space Wolves - 4000 Points, Necrons - 2000 Points.

  5. #4
    The Future realitycheque's Avatar
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    There isn't an army out there that can't beat another particular army - it's just a question of learning the tricks and having a list to match. Anyone who says otherwise is either a poor player or a massive pessimist!
    My Deathwatch Campaign
    Furious Angels: (SM) W22, D1, L9 (BA) W15, D0, L3 | Sentinels of Saphery (HE) W3, D0, L0

  6. #5
    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    You see, I was exactly where Leightjt was, unable to win, getting mad at all the other armies for better this and better that, blaming everyone but myself. (no offense Leightjt!) Now, I win a lot more and against these so called top tiered armies such as Space Wolves or Blood Angels just to name two. I found just by adding two Chariots of Tzeentch to my 1000 point list, allowed me the points to bump up my troops while maintaining strong firepower at the cost of little points. Just a small adjustment made a BIG difference. Don't get me wrong, I still hate the deployment and I think I always will, but I'm getting there too. Daemons are different than any Space Marine type army where you can just put together a list and because they are so flexible, you can be competitive. With Daemons, you cannot just throw together 1000 points of models and expect to win. You need a logical mix of units that compliment each other. It's like mixing gunpowder from it's basic elements; if you mix them wrong you get smoke and no fire. But when you mix them right, BOOM! Daemons are meant to be played this way with certain units complimenting each other in extraordinary ways. Ask anyone who plays the Fateweaver/ Bloodcrusher list. Given time, it will come. Believe me, I know.

  7. #6
    The Future realitycheque's Avatar
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    Your chariots are weird - and a total bargain
    My Deathwatch Campaign
    Furious Angels: (SM) W22, D1, L9 (BA) W15, D0, L3 | Sentinels of Saphery (HE) W3, D0, L0

  8. #7
    Son of LO ericismyname's Avatar
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    Apparently you haven't fought a real leaf blower IG list yet. You will be lucky to kill 1 tank. The main problems are:

    The guy that is -1 to enemy reserves.
    6 Billion Auto cannons
    6 billion Multi Lasers
    6 Billion hull mounted heavy bolters
    Vendettas/Valks with a scoring unit inside
    Ord weapons
    Armour 14

    The list goes on. If you truley can beat a good guard army, I would really, really, love to see it on video or something. Because when I faced them locally and once at ard boyz, I have been beaten so bad that I now forfeit to good mech guard lists because its honestly a waste of my time. I'd rather watch closer games or get some food.


    But try to be objective when you refer to the high powered armies. They are good, national tournament results again and again show the same top tier armies placing.

    But yeah I agree with what you're saying. Plus, I am a fate crusher maniac. Last years ard boyz was fateweaver, blood thirster, 12 crushers, 30 letters ..etccc
    Last edited by ericismyname; February 1st, 2011 at 22:51.
    Eldar -APOC- 6500 Points
    Chaos Daemons -Fate Crusher- 3500 Points
    Grey knights - 1000 Points

  9. #8
    FW has all my cash leighjt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericismyname View Post
    Apparently you haven't fought a real leaf blower IG list yet. You will be lucky to kill 1 tank. The main problems are:

    The guy that is -1 to enemy reserves.
    6 Billion Auto cannons
    6 billion Multi Lasers
    6 Billion hull mounted heavy bolters
    Vendettas/Valks with a scoring unit inside
    Ord weapons
    Armour 14

    The list goes on. If you truley can be a good guard army, I would really, really, love to see it on video or something. Because when I faced them locally and once at ard boyz, I have been beaten so bad that I now forfeit to good mech guard lists because its honestly a waste of my time. I'd rather watch closer games or get some food.


    But try to be objective when you refer to the high powered armies. They are good, national tournament results again and again show the same top tier armies placing.

    But yeah I agree with what you're saying. Plus, I am a fate crusher maniac. Last years ard boyz was fateweaver, blood thirster, 12 crushers, 30 letters ..etccc
    That sounds exactly like my experience.. but replace IG with Mech Eldar

    Autarch = +1 reserves
    Dire Avengers with Bladestorm
    Warp Spiders causing all sorts of havoc
    Doom and Guide from warlocks and farseers - so i get everything aimed at me rerolled (hit and wounded)
    Out flanked by wave serpents / prism cannons and falcons
    out ranged by most shooting - prism cannons
    Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents to (very) easily kill SG's
    Better CC with banshees, harliquins and striking scorpions....

    and then i make it worse by misshapping on DS

    I take no offense to using my experience as the yard stick of a bad daemons experience.. i'm not trying to be a pessimist but when you haven't won a game in as long as you can remember and you've tried lots of different armies but still no luck, you start to give up... thats when you see the negatives in a lot of other armies wargear etc etc
    Current Army Status - Chaos - 15000 points, Orks (BadMoonz) - 3000 Points - Space Wolves - 4000 Points, Necrons - 2000 Points.

  10. #9
    FW has all my cash leighjt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericismyname View Post
    Apparently you haven't fought a real leaf blower IG list yet. You will be lucky to kill 1 tank. The main problems are:

    The guy that is -1 to enemy reserves.
    6 Billion Auto cannons
    6 billion Multi Lasers
    6 Billion hull mounted heavy bolters
    Vendettas/Valks with a scoring unit inside
    Ord weapons
    Armour 14

    The list goes on. If you truley can be a good guard army, I would really, really, love to see it on video or something. Because when I faced them locally and once at ard boyz, I have been beaten so bad that I now forfeit to good mech guard lists because its honestly a waste of my time. I'd rather watch closer games or get some food.


    But try to be objective when you refer to the high powered armies. They are good, national tournament results again and again show the same top tier armies placing.

    But yeah I agree with what you're saying. Plus, I am a fate crusher maniac. Last years ard boyz was fateweaver, blood thirster, 12 crushers, 30 letters ..etccc
    That sounds exactly like my experience.. but replace IG with Mech Eldar

    Autarch = +1 reserves
    Dire Avengers with Bladestorm
    Warp Spiders causing all sorts of havoc
    Doom and Guide from warlocks and farseers - so i get everything aimed at me rerolled (hit and wounded)
    Out flanked by wave serpents / prism cannons and falcons
    out ranged by most shooting - prism cannons
    Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents to (very) easily kill SG's
    Better CC with banshees, harliquins and striking scorpions....

    and then i make it worse by misshapping on DS.. usually what happens is that my phase 1 gets largely blown off the table because they're severely outgunned and i'm on the back foot.. and every good eldar player does everything he/she can to not let me get into CC.. which is understandable.

    I take no offense to using my experience as the yard stick of a bad daemons experience.. i'm not trying to be a pessimist but when you haven't won a game in as long as you can remember and you've tried lots of different armies but still no luck, you start to give up... thats when you see the negatives in a lot of other armies wargear etc etc
    Current Army Status - Chaos - 15000 points, Orks (BadMoonz) - 3000 Points - Space Wolves - 4000 Points, Necrons - 2000 Points.

  11. #10
    Son of LO ericismyname's Avatar
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    Eldar isn't nearly as good as IG. I can confidently say you can't compare the two. I am even a more experienced player with eldar than daemons. I can say that if you are facing an autarch, that's good. There is only 1 list where an Autarch is a good choice over a farseer, but I won't get into it.

    Doomed units getting shot by blade storm is a pain, but fateweaver can still make them take some hits, because you should be having a gigantic screen of blood crushers in the front. Lets do a little math.

    10x Dire avengers w. exarch and dual catapults = 27 shots at BS 4 and 5 shots at BS 5. 17.9 Hits (1 + 4.125 Hits from the exarch. So we will say 22 hits?

    So now we are at str 4 against T 5. Giving them a 33% chance to wound, so on the first round they are going to average 7.26 Wounds, so lets say 7? So that is 15 failures, rerolling them...adding around 4.95 wounds, so 5? So that gives us.... 12 wounds on your unit of correctly armed blood crushers (1x icon, 1x fury, 1x instrument and 1x nothing). So that is 3 per man. Since the weapon is ap5, we will be taking 3+ armour save.

    Then we have a 66% chance to fail a save with 3 on each crusher. So that is giving us a 1.98 saves, so lets say 2? Then we re roll that failed save... which gives you a 66% to pass again. Each man has 2 wounds and is armed differently, so make sure you are taking your saves separately for each man.

    Now we both know that math-hammer is not the end all game, but it does provide some leverage honestly. But we can at least agree on that, the odds of surviving a blade storm are highly in your favor?

    Warp spiders can cause a little panic, but some daemonic gaze will decimate the squad, or a warp fire round of shooting. They have short range and cost over 20 points a peice, plus the exarch (12), dual spinners (5), etc. They are a heavy point sink, so remembering that everyone can be around fateweaver, they arn't doing much damage and can quickly die to a hail of fire due to the usual low model count. Or you can just use a flying guy to go over and break their faces in.

    Catching grav tanks can be tricky, but you have to remember to take plenty of bolts, you will be disabling some, and those are prime prey. then just eat everything inside.

    The best way to survive prism blasts, is just peeps by fateweaver.

    Banshees/Scorps/harlies better than daemons at CC? This is absurd. Look at this way...

    Bloodletter- +1WS, +1S, +1T, 5++, Furious Charge, Fearless, Eternal Warrior
    Banshee- Banshee mask, Fleet, Has a pistol, 4+ armour save

    Bloodletter- +1 WS, +1T, 5++, Furious Charge, Fearless, Eternal Warrior
    Scorpion- +1A, 3+ armour save, Has a Pistol

    Bloodletter- +1S, +1T, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, power weapons, Costs 8 less points
    Harlie- +1WS, Hit and Run, Ignores terrain, Rending, Has a pistol


    Now I wont go into the math for the first 2 because I am really lazy, but you can get an idea of what the results will turn out like. Harlies are so different to compare because they get meltas, shadow seers, etc.

    I am not taking into account upgrade options other than the rending upgrade for harlies cause it is very common.


    Overall, the biggest problem I am seeing from your comments, is you are playing with OUT fateweaver and blood crusher wall. Try proxying some models, and see if you like it.'

    Eric
    Eldar -APOC- 6500 Points
    Chaos Daemons -Fate Crusher- 3500 Points
    Grey knights - 1000 Points

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