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  1. #1
    Senior Member Renosaurus's Avatar
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    General tactics problem

    Hey fellow daemons and otherworldly critters,

    I have a problem for which I could really use your help.
    my wh40k group has basically fallen apart, and I now have only one regular opponent left. however, I can't seem to beet this guy. It's just not funny anymore.

    But I think it's not him, I think it's me.


    So my question to you, how do you use your CSM? I can make a nice list, but I think the problem is in the way I use my marines.
    How should I play them so I can use their full potential?

    thnx,
    Reno

    The best thing about chaos, is your opponent's face when he looks at your disgusting Plague marines

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  3. #2
    Senior Member uber's Avatar
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    your question couldn't be any more vague. why don't you start by telling us where you think your playing fails you. how do you approach a battle? how do you prioritize your targets? what generally happens in your games?


    what do you use? these are all quite important inquiries that would help us gauge your problem.
    I love the smell of promethium in the morning.

  4. #3
    EWOP adamwelton's Avatar
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    Post your list as well old chap, then perhaps we can see if you're doing it wrong for starters.
    Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Renosaurus's Avatar
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    sorry guys,

    I was a little frustrated when I started this topic. But my questions are not specificly about me, it's more abaout you. how do YOU guys use your marines to their full potential?

    Down below is my list. I don't know where it fails me. All I know is that whether he plays IG, sisters, grey knights or nids, he always wins. I've won maybe 5 times (in the past 3 years!) and perhaps just as much draws. And no we don't play one battle every half a year, it's more like one per week.

    1000 pts army:
    Daemon Prince 175
    Wings, MoN, Warptime

    10 Iron Warriors 245
    Ac: pw
    2 melta gun
    Rhino

    8 khorne berzerkers 233
    Sc: pw
    Rhino

    3 Bikers 119
    2 meltagun

    vindicator 125

    predator 100
    heavy bolters


    1500 pts army:
    Daemon Prince 175
    Wings, MoN, Warptime

    10 Iron Warriors 250
    2 meltagun
    AC: powerfist
    Rhino: dozerblades

    10 Iron Warriors 200
    Missile launcher
    AC: powerfist

    10 khorne berzerkers 255
    SC: pf

    3 Bikers 119
    2 meltagun

    vindicator 125

    landraider 225
    dozerblades

    2 obliterators 150

    1499 pts



    2000 pts army:
    2 Daemon prince
    Wings, MoS, LoS 155
    Wings, MoN, Warptime 175

    10 Iron Warriors 250
    2 meltagun
    AC: powerfist
    Rhino: dozerblades

    10 Iron Warriors 200
    Missile launcher
    AC: powerfist

    10 khorne berzerkers 255
    SC: pf

    8 thousand sons 271
    AS: doombolt
    Rhino: dozerblades

    3 Bikers 119
    2 meltagun

    vindicator 125

    landraider 225
    dozerblades

    3 obliterators 225

    2000 pts
    Last edited by Renosaurus; April 22nd, 2011 at 17:11.
    The best thing about chaos, is your opponent's face when he looks at your disgusting Plague marines

  6. #5
    Senior Member Arjuna's Avatar
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    For starters I never use heavy weapons in my basic CSM units, it tends to limit their flexibility and mobility. And I also always use rhinos for my units, 10 CSM with meltas or plasmas and a fist in a rhino with a havoc launcher is a highly flexible unit that can fill any spot needed in the army for 270/280pts. I have had them assault, rapid fire and take the charge, wreck vehicles, guard objectives...well, basically any job in the field...

    Berzerkers then, well, their job is to assault stuff. In my first game in 5th edition I mistakenly brought them up against a bloodthirster, and they were slaughtered! After that I tend to plan more thoroughly what to charge, and when. Zerkers NEED a LR or rhino to be effective and choose their enemies, else they'll get stranded somewhere and probably end up in cc versus the "wrong" unit (ie the one your opponent wants them to fight!)...


    My general plan when facing an opponent is to get my princes into combat with smaller elite units, preferably ones specializing in ranged combat. If there are units with FnP they'd go for them as well. They are good firemagnets and instill fear into your opponent, especially after wiping out a unit of elites or a vehicle. Oblits are a given for me at least, but I play where the meta is filled with MEQ! While slowly(it's funny how many snakeeyes I roll for them, lol) advancing I bring my plasma cannons or lascannons to bear, depending what I'm targeting, when I get closer I switch to multimelta or TL plasmaguns. Rest of my army is harassing or objective-grabbing...
    win some, lose some

  7. #6
    LO Zealot Col. Dracus's Avatar
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    I agree with what Arjuna has pointed out. But I must also add that our Bikes are overpriced for what they do, the Berzerkers need a fist and not a PW do to wound allocation tricks and cut their size down to 8, you might want to go with Lascannon Sponsons on your Pred with the Autocannon turret, 1K Sons normaly work better in a small group and I would drop DoomBolt for Warptime, Try useing your Lash Prince in the smaller games as it will make a bigger impact when he has less units, and lastly i would suggest only takeing 10 CSM if you are going to take 2 special weapons otherwise go with a mid-sized squad and save the heavy weapons for Havoc Squads (Missiles and Autocannons work well).

    Sample 1500 list of what I would do with what I see you have.

    Lash Prince -155
    Lash Prince -155

    10x CSM 2 Plasma, champ with fist, IoCG, rhino -265
    6x CSM, rhino -125
    5x 1K Sons, Warptime, rhino -222
    8x Zerkers, champ with fist -208 (put in Land Raider)

    Land Raider -***
    Oblit -**
    Oblit -**

    I would have the 6x CSM sit on the home objective, send the other rhinos forward with the D. Princes, Leave the LR back for a turn to shoot. Pop transports, then use the D. Prince to move his units into the open, ues the 1k sons and plasmaguns on units in the open. Don't get out unless your opponent is close enought for you to assault or rapid fire. Move the LR up with the Zerkers to unleash CC goodness. Don't underestimate the Asp. Sorc in CC with Warptime, he has a Force Weapons and can be very deadly with all the re-rolls.
    Last edited by Col. Dracus; April 22nd, 2011 at 18:15. Reason: added sample list

  8. #7
    Senior Member Renosaurus's Avatar
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    sounds like what I try to do, but somehow seem to fail at it every time.


    looking at the 1k list, this is the idea behind it:

    my prince will fly arround, instill fear like a bumblebee does and kill whatever he can.

    10 csm and 8 berzerkers rush to the front, zerkers charging and my marines having target practice.

    3 bikers might be overpriced, but if they kill one tank they gor their points back. I have to admit, I was concidering loosing them, but haven't found a nice replacement yet...

    vindicator is, well awsome. he does what a vindicator does best

    the predator is anti infantery and light vehicles. It's good to have something firm which can kill infantery, while they have more trouble killing you back... besides I think the predator with 3 lascannons is to expencive.


    the unit with a missle launcher in the 1500 list sits back ang shoots stuf/guards an objective

    from 1500 pts on the zerkers have upgraded transport(LR)

    the thousand sons have doombolt cause they are meant for shooting, not cc. they won't win, so why bother...



    That's the general idea, anyway...

    can you give me a sample list?
    The best thing about chaos, is your opponent's face when he looks at your disgusting Plague marines

  9. #8
    Senior Member uber's Avatar
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    your list seems ok. i think the others pretty much covered what problems you have. since you asked what we do, i'll tell you.

    i pretty much have a favorite list i play. i play 1500 points, and most of the time it's against marines. that's good. i like killing loyalists. depending on the opponent i will make minor changes, like using a second DP instead of kharn, fists instead of power weapons, and melta v plasma v flamer. but other than that i don't change it too much.

    my usual opponent doesn't run heavy armor, so i don't over commit to melta. autocannons are the best for busting light armor, especially if you can get it twin linked.

    now for my list,

    DP w/ wings, MoT, warptime, WoC
    kharn

    elites

    karmoon special- 4 termis, 3 combi's and a HF and a PF. (if i'm being silly i'll sub a RAC for the HF if i want to footslog them. that's actually really effective for busting rhino's and speeders)

    troops

    7 zerkers- AC w/PW in rhino
    7 PM- AC w/PF and 2 PG in rhino
    10 CSM- generally i don't really do much with them, so maybe a champ, maybe flamers, depends on the points. they may be in a rhino too.

    HS
    defiler
    oblit
    oblit

    now here's what i do first. i always try to go second. i like to see where the enemy sets up. i get a feel for where he is strong and where he is weak. then i counter deploy. i make sure he won't have a good shot at anything, and then with the defiler and oblits i will be able to move into LOS on my turn for the good shots.

    i also make sure everyone has everyone's back. i also have an idea of how i want to destroy their army. the good thing about running a prince and kharn the way that i do is that either one of them will make mincemeat of anything they charge. you only have about 2 turns before my prince gets to you, so that means kharn doesn't get as much fire as he should. the PM are there to hold the center of the board and lend support to whoever needs it. i try to keep my units within eachothers range that way if any squad is in danger of being charged both of them can fire on the attacker before he charges. this keeps any one squad from taking a charge from full strength squads. once kharn or the DP get their charge on then generally my opponent starts to panic. this means my oblits and defiler will be free to do what they want.

    you want a list that can do everything, sure, but make sure you play to your opponents weakness. most people are scared of heavy weapons first. that's fine. if that is the case i run my prince and two rhinos as far as i can early to take the center (controlling the center is very big, just like in chess). if he is looking to stop my assault units, then i play coy with my prince and rhino and open up with the oblits and defiler.

    the way my games generally unfold is that my opponent will be able to set up one nice offensive move (whether it's a deep strike, drop pod, fast vehicle, sternguard, etc..), but i keep my units in formation such that he only gets ONE shot at the apple. i know i can win with several of my units, so i will gladly trade one of them for his best attacker. i know that marines don't do well against chaos in tight, especially when i'm running plasma. so i will let him overcommit his sternguard for the shot on my prince just so the PM's can wipe them out afterwards. without his key sternguard unit his troop strength is greatly diminished, and i still have kharn. speaking of kharn, he has won more games for me than any other unit. why? because between him and the skull champ w/ pw that is 12 attacks on the charge that ignore armor. the other six guys are just there to look mean. that means that even after the rhino gets popped i can still march inexorably towards their target because kharn effectively has 8 wounds to give up before their offensive capability is scrapped. that just doesn't happen.

    next we have the math part of tactics. as much as you can, don't take shots that are stacked against your success, and as much as you can help it make his shots stacked against him. this means block LOS with your rhinos, keep oblits in cover, make him shoot at your DP (with the 4++ it will absorb a ton of fire), and keep your units spread out if there is a blast weapon. for your own shots, don't just immediately fire your las cannon at a rhino if it just popped smoke...look and get a sense of the odds for all the units in your LOS.

    the last lesson is to get the most out of your firepower. what does that mean? let me tell you. it means to fire all your guns in such a way as to maximize the number of casualties that you could possibly infllict. here's how you do that. as much as you can help it use small arms fire to pop transports. plasma guns/pistols can do this very well. after you pop the transport you have 2 plasma cannon shots and a battle cannon. that is much more economical that firing the battle cannon at it first.

    i find that most opponents i play break numerous of these guidelines. they waste shots on low success targets, they spread their stuff out too far, and they don't make their units work together. i can't tell you how many times i've had a unit come close to shoot at me but not have anyone watching his back. always be prepared to answer this question, "so after i do ___, then what will happen to my unit?" using the point values will give you an idea of risks that are worth taking vs those that should be passed up.

    and in case you think you can never learn this that fast, i've only been playing for 2 months. i've played chess since i was a kid, but this is way cooler and fun.
    I love the smell of promethium in the morning.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Arjuna's Avatar
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    make sure you take transports for everything that can have it and go read the transport topic here on the forum, it will give you many good hints and tricks to use...
    win some, lose some

  11. #10
    Member shange's Avatar
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    nice tactics there mate think ill be using those my self
    ive actully fallen into the thing where i spread my untis to thinly allthough the games i have played ive allwys let them set up 1st so that i cna try and counter it and then try to still the inative so that i cna get a few shoots of but not move my troops up
    but ill be defo be rethinking my tactics for the games i got tomorrow which im looking forward too. just hoping im not to tired lol
    The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving.

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