Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Greetings my fellow brothers & sisters of unbridled evil!
This is more of a rant than anything, but it's to show that if the knights really want to, there's no way we can win a game against them... Such as the filth I recently had to endure at the only local club;
2x Inquisitors w/rad & psychotroke grenades + hammerhand. (would join a strike squad)
3x strike squads in razorbacks
2x 10-man interceptor squads
Not the whole list obviously as we going to play a 1850pts game... This was on a 6'x4' table - the biggest available at the club.
Basically, he won the roll-off for 1st turn and then broke the interceptors into combat squads to increase their area of coverage. He then proceeded to use his teleport shunt plus the razorbacks' speed to ensure there was litterly no spot on the table that was unaffected by Turn-1 Warpquaking...
Needless to say after watching this, I packed-up and told him to go & play with himself... (and also to let us know when he finds his balls so he doesn't have to act like such a big girl!)
Granted it relies on the GK's going first, but to me, this is proof that the grey knights book is brokenly stupid & that Ward is the worst games designer for even allowing these types of set-ups to happen!
Hell, even the nastiest space puppy list can be beaten with careful play & some luck... But honestly, what are we daemons supposed to even attempt against this kind of blaitent abuse?!! (besides, pray for first turn & hope he doesn't steal the initiative!)
Any ideas to help combat this, besides just ignoring the morons who pull this kind of crap?!
The new GK codex SEEMS broken but it's actually not. And the old GKs had much more things to counter daemons. Do you remember the old incinerator profile? It ignored invulnerable saves, which simply meant "I kill your army, exactly as HeavyFlamers kill guardsmen". What is more, the fact that you strike at Iniative1 and that he re-rolls hits at CC against you doesn't mean that he will WIN the fight, since you have many more units dedicated in CC.. Besides, his entire army has weapons that ignore armour saves and cause instant death, while all your army is UNAFFECTED by that (you have invulnerable saves and eternal warriors to your whole army, remember?).
I think the battle between GKs and Daemons is pretty balanced. If you spam Bloodletters and Crushers, his strike squads and his interceptors will be completely destroyed. Also, his Dreadknights can be easily countered by Greater Daemons (Unclean One is the best against a Dreadknight). Lastly, Slaanesh models, such as Fiends and Seekers lose their high iniative, but not their over-all effectiveness, since their damage output is very high with all these attacks and the rending special rule.
Ask the poor Necron player "How do you counter GKs?" and then start complaining about your Daemons. He'll just answer you "My Nightbringer killed a Dreadknight and a Squad of Terminators, but I Phased Out Turn 3". Necrons are condemned to lose against GKs, although daemons should be according to the fluff.
The Warp Quake-spam list is a somewhat gimmicky list that is only truly overpowered against the equally-gimmicky for everyone but Daemons all-deep strike list. It's just daemons bad luck that they don't have any choice in the matter... and it does rely entirely on first turn and deployments that aren't Dawn of War (in which they can cover most of the board but will be sacrificing their shunt moves turn one and you'll still have a 6" strip on the far side to try and deploy in). If your troops get down then it turns into a fair fight if you've taken a proper list.
(Also, the Necrons answer is to not bring the Nightbringer, and max out their Destroyers. With some luck, you might last to turn five without phasing out)
"The sergeant major asked me what my job is. I told him it's to do what I am told. He gave me a medal. I like the Imperial Guard."
"Innocentia Probat Nihil"
Naah, maximizing the destroyers won't solve your problems, since they won't last until Turn 3.. A Teleporting Dreadknight with Greatsword and a squad of interceptors or a unit of purifiers/terminators disembarking from a SR, charging them, will kill every last destroyer Turn 2. And now that the Necron Player will not be able to harm the GK army (since GKSS>Necron Warriors), the GK player is free to go for the Phase Out. The Nightbringer at least can kill a Dreadknight and a squad of Termies/GKs/Purifiers and if the GK player is not lucky with his 6s or if you are lucky with your invu saves, he may be still alive and make some more kills. Now you will tell me that the answer is the vindicare. Look. This is just my personal experience. Without a Ctan, my army phases out Turn 3 or 4 or I just lose 10-2 kill points in annihilate missions. With a Ctan, I have a chance of winning, especially at low point games (1000-1500).
- True, we get our invulns now vs the special weapons.
- We only strike at I1 *if* the knights charge us. However, considering our forced deployment gimmik, it's likely that only slaaneshi units & winged units will get the charge unless you're very careful.
- Nemesis Force weapons *DO* insta-pooch daemons! Sure it takes a failed Ld test on our part, but eternal warrior isn't the 100% protection it was now.
Crushers do better because they have multiple wounds, but termies & purifiers will still put the hurt on them rather badly.
Still, slaaneshi units are better in combat - espeically fiends since they have wieght of attacks.
- Charge a Greater Daemon into a Dreadknight? Seriously?!! That simply leads to a dead daemon... We kill DK's by having to multi-charge them, due to their dark excomunication power which nulifies Every. Single. Gift. Hell, even our daemon prince's marks get nerfed! (though happily, our herals mounts are now immune...)
Plus, this topic was about how do Daemons deal with highly abusive GK lists such as the Turn1 Warp Quake spam... At least necrons get to play a turn or three - we can lose in deployment.
This is indeed a broken tactic, that basically auto-wins against Daemons and any other army that relies mainly upon deep strike. Honestly, it's a broken power. They really should have toned it down.
That said, it's not a good list at all otherwise. If it's Dawn of War, or if he doesn't go first, he's pretty much screwed. It's not a terrible list, per se, but it's certainly not competitive. Worse yet, when you factor in the chance of playing Dawn of War, or not going first, the trick only has a 33% chance of working.
Assuming equal skill and balance of army power, the base average for winning any game should be around 50%. He's essentially taking a big hit to his army's overall competitiveness in order to do WORSE than average against a specific type of army.
In short, he's an idiot.
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
Most of the local GK players bring 2 lists - 1 geared for 'all comers' and the other one that's specifically ment for daemon thrashing...
Suffice to say, daemons are almost a dead army in my neck of the woods because of the 'ard boyz mentality that's taken over.
I just wish there was some way to beat a 1st turn quake-shuntting list, because it would be oh so glorious to utterly humiliate the d-bags without sinking down to their level of jerkiness!
I've thought about pulling out a Fateweaver list, but the again, the big problem is getting it down safely before the warp-quaking festivities kick off?!
NECRON Army List Builder a Free excel capable list generator for 5th and 6th ed. 11/2011
Necrons - 6000 points, Tau - 6000, Daemons - 5250, Eldar - 4500, Blood Angels - 5000
Some pics form my hobby. http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r...arodragon/40k/
I agree with Experiment 626 in all regards. The Grey Knights are completely over the top when it comes to Daemons. I can't see why one army can be so stacked against another army. It's not right. Matt Ward must hate the Daemons. Too bad too, because I love Daemons and it is getting really hard to find Daemon players anywhere. It's just going to be Grey Knights over again when Witch-Hunters codex comes out this year. I hope the reduced sales in Daemons will wake GW up.
Ironically the current GK army is the only one that actually plays 'as per the fluff' (IMHO)...... so they are supposed to be that awesome, the Black Library books have 2 squads taking on a whole daemon world, and there lies the rub my friends.... WORLD... The main issue with the current setup is that the Daemons are supposed to have UNLIMITED stuff coming at the GK's.
I'd take the current GK rules if they reintroduced Daemonic Infestation, i.e i get to bring my Daemon Units back on if you kill them off.
oh... but then GK players wouldn't like that, would they
Last edited by leighjt; July 18th, 2011 at 15:43.
Current Army Status - Chaos - 15000 points, Orks (BadMoonz) - 3000 Points - Space Wolves - 4000 Points, Necrons - 2000 Points.