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As my collection of CSM models is ever increasing (and near to its end), I started play testing some units, to get the the likes and don't like right. As you all know, we, as CSM, have a considerable amount of troops compared to our SM counterparts. But as you also know, all of those juicy options are also quite pricey (both in money and pts). But as I'm mainly a casual player (which still appreciate his games to be semi-competitive), I do want to get what's the best value for my bucks.
So, reality is that if I want to play a CSM marine army, I have to pay a lot for my troops. Fine by me, as we do have quality in this area, and as a bonus, that area of our codex is quite unique, so here's my troop section review :
CSM : Great deal, considering that they come with CC and pistol standart over our SM counterpart, but Champion options and other weapon upgrades makes them slightly overprice compared to SM, and highly overpriced compared to SW. But overall they are cheap enough to be good, if flavourless... Joke ! marks makes them eveything but flavourless, and used in conjuncture with the right upgrades, can work wonders.
PM : I do understand why these are most people favorites, but IMO they don't deserve all that fuzz. Their ability to take 2x special weapons of your choice (within a limited number of *close range* options) is what makes these guys stand out for me, but that's about everything (and honestly, a squad of 5 raptors is cheapter and just as fast...). So what about the T5 and FnP roll? Well, considering a standart SM profile is already quite tough (T4 and save 3+), those upgrades stats are good vs small arm fire (note, str 7 and less and ap 3 and less weapons). Thing is, your opponent knows this too, and unless he HAS to get only that type of weapon on the board (*which he doesn't* except for Nids), PM are just as resilient as a normal SM but cost a mighty 8 pts more (+cost for transport). Plasma, melta, ML, LC, Pfists, Pweapon, DCCW, Barrage, etc. Is it just me or are these guys just a good deal for optimizing your opponent special and heavy weapon kills ? Rhino + X Pm + 2 special weapons end out costing a lot for someting that has to be in short range to be effective, and considering that Rhinos are quite easily destroyed/stunned/shaken and have to move 6'' for your troops to be able to shoot, am I right not to appreciate them ?
Berserkers : Now, what really kills these IMO is the fact they don't have a proper assault transport other than a Land Raider (cost heavy). These are a wonderful assault unit, but without the proper support in game phases mechanics, and their lack of shooting specialization makes it even harder to get 100% of these guys potential. Now now, I ear you thinking how poor of a player I must be to complain about both PM and Berzerkers, but I simply believe that they do not fit in my style of play !
Noise marines : Really ? 25 pts for what now GK's get for 20 pts + pweapon + Hammerhand + special weapons and combat tactics ? Ahahahahaaaaaaah I'm crying now. Actually, if these had access to 2x special weapons, I,d have some, because Doom Siren is soooo good, but they don't, so forget them.
1000 sons : Great anti-meqs, and their invulnerable save gives them that extra survivability against special weapons in low cover games, but 5th edition makes their pros avaliable to everyone (SM in cover anyone?), and their price tag is so high because of the mandatory Aspiring Sorcerer that these guys are a big NO. Plus they miss real anti-tank power. No, bolt of tzeentch is not a solution here.
Now now, what do I have left ? Well, I started using these : CSM with MoK and Fabius Bile augment. Yes, I do know that the augment ability is tricky, but what I like about this ability is that even with a 1 or a 6, you still get +1 (or2) str and Fearless ! So even if it can affect your squads, the effect is still fully there for the duration of the game.
Now, what's great about this combo :
For the price of Berzerkers, you get a permanent str 5 (not on the charge), 3 attacks base, special weapon wielding units. And why is this great? For me, it works great with game mechanics. A squad of 10 allows you to have 2x special weapons (meltas) to fully use the Rhino's hatch, and the fact that the whole squad have bolters makes them a good ''move 12'', drop in cover and fire unit''. So what if you get charged? 3 str 5 attacks is not something to take lightly for anyone. So they have a larger range of targets than Berzerkers, while still being a threat if charged (which berzerkers are not). Str 5 and a lot of attacks makes them good at charging light vehicles. And if you take a champ with pfist (you should), str 9 pfists is nothing to sniff at (even if str 9 is not really better than str 8 except against walkers, but if you happen to roll a 6, it's str 10...).
Now, the con's :
High price tag, because even if they cost less than PM, you have to make them 10 strong to be cost effective (Berzerker point range, 2x special weapon).
Augment possibly kills some models before the game starts (or during).
You cannot use a dual Lash Prince list, since fabius is using an HQ slot, and fitting him into a transport might prove hard to do.
Really, their biggest flaw is the absence of dual princes in the list IMO... Just use a Prince and a GD to use your 2 prince models
10 CSM, MoK, Augment, 2x melta, Champ with Pfist, Rhino. 305 pts
10 (or more, which reduces their price tag because Marks get cheaper per models you have!) CSM, MoK, Augment, flamer, LC, Champ with Pfist. 275 pts (ideal for sitthing into cover, blasting the opponent transports).
Last edited by Bladesuit; November 6th, 2011 at 14:51.
it's an intriguing idea. expensive, but intriguing. if you really wanted to spend some points you could add MoN to them. S5 T5 marines would be retarded in combat.
I love the smell of promethium in the morning.
Pretty good analysis, Bladesuit. Having been devoted to heresy for over six years, here’s what I've learned:
On Plague Marines: Bear in mind that against basic weapons, these guys are tougher than terminators. They may be just as squishy as any other marine against missile launchers and the likes; however, troops are primarily hounded with basic attacks, so in this respect, their staying power tends to remain at a premium.
The min/max variant with dual specials is a decent support unit, although you end up paying a hefty price for essentially a pair of melta or plasma guns (not a particularly good deal, especially if you field them with a rhino- added cost). Our troops are really designed to be taken with a leader, who can assist with his upgraded armory.
Plague Marines are incredibly consistent. Even when exposed, these guys are stout, whereas Berzerkers die in droves, just as any other MEQ. Day in and day out, they constantly stand up against enemy troops, which is why they're so coveted by our generals. Plaguers may be pricey, but they perform extremely well on the table, and are rather forgiving.
The comparison to Raptors has, if you don't mind me saying, an "in-game" flaw. Jump-pack troops are simply too high a priority target to last through the thick of battle. While their enhanced ranged (i.e., movement) affords them superior tactical command, at the same time, they're quite vulnerable. This, and the lack of scoring status, has virtually invalidated them for competitive games. That said, you’re looking for a good casual build, so you might very well consider these chaps.
On high strength, low AP weapons: Rarely have I found our Plague Marines the out-and-out victim of viscous high strength, armor depriving rounds. For one thing, Chaos frequently employs large numbers of vehicles and monstrous creatures. If an opponent focuses their tank busting units at a squad of Plague Marines, they'll undoubtedly kill a few, but at the expense of leaving our vehicles unhindered. This should work to our advantage. Of course, plasma guns are the bane of Nurgle troops. There's just no getting around that.
Noise Marines: Yep, pretty much. I rarely field them. As such, perhaps other members will share their experiences with the Slaaneshi Cultic followers.
Thousand Sons: Agreed. Some Chaos players get around the lack of tank busting by teaching their Aspiring Sorcerers the blessed gift of Bolt of Change. Although, this particular psi power has no synergy with the rest of the squad, whose main focus is marine-killing. They also fall prey to hordes.
Fabius Bile Marines: Combining Enhanced Warrior with the Icons of Chaos can produce some really fantastic troops. Both Khorne and Slaanesh are worth considering, the later of which bestows a kind of permanent Furious Charge on the unit when tallied with EW. However, in order to capitalize on Bile, you need to field a lot of basic infantry, so Bile naturally lends himself to larger skirmishes. I wouldn’t field him in anything less than 1500 points.
Note: Aside from Enhanced Warrior, Bile offers no other tangible benefit to an army. His Rod o’ Torment rarely “instant kills”, owing to his lack of armor-depriving wounds. As far as his Needler goes, I forget, but I don’t think this weapon can damage vehicles. Right?
Last edited by Rabbit; November 7th, 2011 at 08:44.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
rabbit it pretty much on the money when it comes to zerkers and plaguers. they are essential to being competitive. it's one of the distinct advantages our codex has over everyone else.
regarding EW: i wouldn't put plasma guns on them for two reasons. there is a good chance bile's experiment will kill some of them anyway, so it's too risky to put plasma on them. secondly, you put the extra strength on them for a reason. use it. rapid fire weapons are a no no. you want to assault, so melta is the way to go.
everyone dogs on NM, but i played against a guy who slogged big units of them, and they are pretty effective. their sonic blasters really do damage at under 24". with all the cover in 5th ed. it is not difficult to just hunker down and make the enemy take save after save. does no one think they are worth it? they are the only cult troop i don't have, but i think i may play test some count as models just to see what it does for me.
and bile's needler wounds on a 2+ and has no S value. so no vehicle busting capability. he seems good at shooting (with only BS4 though), but 7 attacks on the charge are not bad (but power attacks would be nice).
after reading this thread i think i may try him out.
Last edited by uber; November 7th, 2011 at 14:27.
I love the smell of promethium in the morning.
The CSM codex is all about forcing our opponent to prioritize targets. A good player will force him to choose wrong, and capitalize on the mistakes. Every time.
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Last edited by WyteNite; November 7th, 2011 at 20:29. Reason: Just to update my signature. ^_^
I really need to focus on a single army...
Orkz: 3000 pts. Slaaneshi Chaos: 2500 pts. Ultramarines: 1250 pts. Necrons: 1000 pts.
Eldar: 1000 pts. Tau: 1000 pts. Dark Angels: 550 pts. Grey Knights: 450 pts
The Wolf time is upon us!
Rep for the Rep God! Positive for the Positive Throne!
Armies: Space Wolves, Imperial Guard, Emperors Children, Necrons, Eldar
I love the smell of promethium in the morning.