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I've been posting around LO lately trying to figure out what my second army should be. I play a fast, fun Blood Angel army but want to change it up a bit. Sadly I cant find much on Chaos Daemons other than there not very good, unique and have won some big tournament (ard boyz I think???). This is where I come to you bloodthirsty, fun-looking Daemons. Here is what I want to know:
1) How fun are this army (to paint, units, fluff...etc)
2)Best lists out there (tournaments)
5)How I should start my army
also, due to the rumours of 6th ed. I am wondering whether I shud make my decision now??? THANKS
1) I think the army is a tone of fun! The unique deployment means alot of opponents have little to no clue how to counter your initial turn. (especially if you make them go first!) Overall the army rewards you for being more agressive and never taking your foot off the gas. Sitting back just isn't in a warp-gribbly's best interests.
As for the painting/modeling. They're Daemons! There's litterly no real set way to paint them beyond the colour palets associated with each individual god. (ie: Khornate units tend to be red, black & brass - the colours of Lord Khorne himself, while Tzeentchian units can be any of the colours of the 8 winds of magic, etc...)
2) The 'Beat-List' tends to revolve around Kairos Fateweaver, one of the dirtiest models in the entire game and units of Bloodcrushers, Fiends, Princes & Tzeentch Heralds on chariots/Bloodthirster.
You try cracking an army of re-rolling armour/invulnerable saves that lands about 18" away from you and includes at least 3-4 MC's!
3) Alot of the tactics will really depend on your unit selection. Suffice it to say, the biggest hurdle is learning to plan an effective 1st turn deep strike deployment of 4-8+ units.
4) Again, the 'best units' totally depends on what you're needing and what you're facing. For example, a Bloodthirster w/Blessing of the Blood God is utterly dirty against GK's, while a unit of 3x Flamers is an awsome alpha-strike unit for cleaning up things like Missilefangs who like to hug cover... Fiends are insanely fast and can mop-up hordes, while Tzheralds w/Bolt on a chariot are effective tank-hunters.
Kairos is a plain 'ol army buff granting you a re-roll saves bubble that can make things like Bloodcrushers & Princes into deathstars.
5) Kick start your army with the battlion, The Changeling, (best upgrade in the game!), and a suitable blister for a Herald.
Bloodletters are solid in large numbers of 12-15+ per unit. Daemonettes are squishy, but fast and have rending attacks. Seekers are evil things being cavalry, a unit of 10-12 can mop-up most equally sized units or else put some serious hurt on lone MC's thanks to rending. You'll need another box of both 'nettes & seekers to make them viable however. (T3 with only a 5++ = bolter bait in small squads)
Horrors are vital for their Bolt upgrade which is our only means of effective ranged anti-tank.
Oh, and going Daemons means you also have a Fantasy army in the whole deal as well!
Thanks for all the answers I've always sort of overlooked daemons as the army that just gets tossed around, and never really researched them. But I've been going through the forum here (just checking all armies for a suitable 2nd army) and I mean, DAMN they look fun. I like something unique (dont play mech BA as much, just cuz JP troops are that much cooler and Mephy and devastators are awesome... you get the point) but still able of putting up a fight. This is what attracts me to the Daemons the most: Uniqueness and crazy squishy beasts of doom that all deepstrike (no one will know what to do, as there is only 1 Daemon player near me, and basically, he sucks. But his models are the best painted in my area as well, so hes more of a modelling guy anyways.)
MORE QUESTIONS!!!: 1) after looking at the competitive lists here, ive noticed that daemonettes are not used, and bloodthirsters arent good for 1000 point games (my objective for 2nd army, for now at least) cuz you need big hordes. This is why I'm not sure if I want the battleforce, cuz just getting Nurglings/horrors are most cost-effective and more competitive.
2) would buying a herald of tzeentch and then some screamers to attach to the front of his floating disk be a good conversion for a chariot??? How do you convert yours???
Plus, playing what internet wisdom considers a massive underdog army is great fun, especially when you school those silly no-brainer netlists you're supossed to always lose too! (only GK's really kick us squarely in the teeth)
Daemonettes don't 'suck', but they're very much in the same position as the likes of Bloodclaws in the SW 'dex - the other Troops option is just heads-and-tails better!
The prefered 'uber competitive Troops choices for Daemons are 5-6 strong Horror squads for easy spaming of Bolt, and 5-6 strong Plaguebearer squads for holding objectives. (camp on objective, go to ground, laugh as your opponent tries to shoot down a T5/3++/FnP unit!)
Nurglings however are utterly disgusting in an Epidemius list and once the tally is maxed-out, they're arguably one of the best deathstars in the game! (wounding everything on 2+ and ignoring armour saves with an 'eternal warrior' swarm = fun times!)
A Bloodthirster is still fine for an HQ at 1000pts, but you'd likely be giving up any thought of taking Heralds because the 'Thirster is costly enough. While I normally hate list tailoring, a 'Thirster is an absolute must-have vs GK's however, as he's one of the only things that can reliably chop them up thanks to his Blessing of the Blood God upgrade! (just beware of Dreadknights, Coteaze and potentially a Librarian removing all your gifts though!)
2) Yes, your idea would be fine for representing a chariot of Tzeentch! Best bet is to also pick-up a proper chariot base as then the model will be 100% legal for use in Fantasy as well. (you might as well model certain units with Fantasy in mind since you never know if/when you want to give it a try.)
My own cariots are kit-bashed from the High Elf lion chariot, some gribbly winged guys I threw together and the Herald himself being based off of a Fantasy character.
Overall Daemons is pretty much an excuse to go crazy when it comes to conversions!
Daemons are like Orks, fun to play and great to look at, but it'll be a steep learning curve if you're used to Blood Angels. A good daemon player is like a good Dark Eldar player: hard to beat because they know exactly how to maximise their army's strengths while minimising its weaknesses.
1) Bloodthirsters, being so expensive, aren't the best choice for the small game; I personally prefer the Keeper of Secrets for those, as it's a monster if you play it right and cheaper. The battleforce is still really good though, as bloodletters are beasts at any level, and you get 20 in the battleforce! Plus, most don't use Daemonettes because Bloodletters are tougher, and daemonettes, competitively, have to either be in really high numbers or stick in cover. I like them, though I mainly use my daemons for fun games and not tournaments (too many GK players, which makes it difficult to bring anything but the Fateweaver list).
So battleforce is still a good base, lots of Bloodletters, a decent amount of Horrors, and Seekers are fast and deadly. Just remember the glass hammer rule, so grab icons, hug cover and try and shield your weaker units (Daemonettes, Seekers, Bloodletters) with your tougher ones (Horrors, because of T4 and the 4++ save).
2) That's how most people do it, either than or grabbing a fantasy chariot and hooking the screamers to it and dropping a herald onboard. I wanted two, so I grabbed one of the Tomb King chariot boxes, a box of screamers and then kit-bashed greenstuff, extra horror bits and the skeleton riders to make my Heralds.
Oh ya that seems like a good conversion Its not a very competitive area near me, And I only saw one GK player at the recent tourny here. But, the others may be hiding...
The thing is that I love the Fiends and they are great but expensive as hell - How should I deal with that, just go to Ebay or something???
- Also how hard was it to convert those chariot heralds??? just wondering for future time, cuz if i get daemons then I want 2 of these guys.
Also, is it likely that if there is a 6th ed coming out this summer that the Daemons will get a new codex, meaning that they will probably get stronger and have less issues with anti-tank???
Daemons aren't likely to get a new codex soon, as their Fantasy counterparts are still pretty good and GW will most likely redo both of them at the same time. As for conversions, isn't too hard, the new Screamers are Finecast so they're easier to deal with than the metal ones I had to use, and I just hooked them up to the chariots. The Heralds were harder, but this was before they had actual Herald models, and my problems were greenstuffing proper robes; they still look like crap to me.
As for Fiends, I haven't bought any yet, I'm not too far into the Elites section of my daemon army, so I can't give any advice there, other than to say I've heard groups of at least 6 are useful.
About the thread: there are no really bad armies only bad players. By that I mean, in the right hands almost every army has a chance to win. I can tell you that in our circle, my Daemons are almost feared by everyone except the Grey Knight player. I've had spectacular wins over Blood Angels, Space Wolves and now even the Guard. The Daemons are a tough thing to master, but once you are on to how they play, you should do fairly well against all comers (Grey Knights aside). I find that many players cast down the Daemons, but soon learn not too if they come up against a good Daemon player. Deep Striking is a unforgiving mistress. It can give you a superior position if successful and kill you if you are not. I think that's what puts people off of Daemons, their unpredictability in the deployment. I just had a 2000 point kill point game against a tough White Scar player. He ran the typical Devastator Squads, Terminators, Land Raider, Snipers,Tactical Squads etc. I dropped a unit of three Flamers down beside the building one of his Devastators were hiding in and killed all 10 in his squad in one turn. 3 Flame templates, no cover, no armour. I had 10 Bloodletters deep strike and had 5 die in small arms fire. His Terminators charged the remaining 5 Bloodletters and lost the battle. That's the power of the Daemons. If the Flamers don't deep strike on target, they probably get shot to death. If the Bloodletters had not have been able to get to cover by running, I would have taken more losses and may not have beaten the Terminators. Daemons are a great army, but they just aren't for everyone. The models are really cool and fun to paint. There are many conversion opportunities especially with chariots and Heralds.
Thats a shame that they probz arent getting a new codex this year, but as one of the only armies still in 4th ed., I wud think so anyways, the chariot herals is really effin expensive if you ude screamers, chariots and heralds on disk (just to get a nice looking guy without conversion). it would be around 120 dollars for both (roughly, maybe higher) and thats only 2 models!!! lol, that sucks but is cool on the other hand. Would just attaching the screamers to the disk work??? That would be easier if I could do that.
The more I talk about Daemons, the more convinced I am. Wonder how they will fare in 6th ed??? probz slightly better
Hey andrewbeater, could you post your list up here, just for reference as it sounds quite good to say the least. Also any tips on mastering the Daemons??? like should I go all or nothing with the split up or balanced halves??? Thanks anyways for the responses guys.
I made my TzHeralds on chariots on the cheap. It cost one Screamer and one Pink Horror. I just made the chariot out of wood and the base out of flat balsa wood. Simple and cost effective. The problem of posting a list here is that everyone and their uncle's grandson has a different opinion on how to play. I'll post a good 1000 point and 1500 point list just to help; they are tested and win a lot in my circles anyway:
8 Pink Horrors w/ Changling, Bolt 151
8 Pink Horrors w/bolt 146
2 Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Master Sorc, Legion, Bolt 220
1 Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm, Tongue 185
3 Flamers No Gifts 105
1 Daemon Prince w/ MoTz, Iron Hide, Bolt, D.Gaze 190
Total points= 997
For 1500 Points I add to that list:
3 Flamers w/No Gifts 105
3 Flamers w/No Gifts 105
Icon on one Pink Horror 25
1 Lord of Change w/ no gifts 250
Total points: 1482
Lots of Bolts, decent cc with the Lord and tons of flame to contend with. Deadly against MEQ's. (Marine Equivalents)