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Hey all i've been posting for a while and collecting a lot of CSM's and such and i've finally come up with a relativly good sized army list that i built and will be striving to finish, i would really appreciate any good or bad things that all of you have to say. Feel free to post or even send me a message. :
This is my own army i'm creating called the Crimson Legion (or possibly somthin else )
Deamon Prince w/ unholy steed, mark of khorne demonic weapon, some other demonic abilities and wargear, (accompanied by a squad of chosen aspiring champians w/ jump packs and power weapons)
Chaos LT w/ Terminator armor, mark of khorne, duel power claws again w/ some other demonic abilities and wargear (accompanied by a squad of terminator chosen)
(thinking about adding some possessed but i'm not sure at this point)
20 Berzerkers (1 aspiring champion)
10 Berzerkers w/ Rhino (1 aspiring champion)
20 Chaos Marines w/ mark of khorne (1 aspiring champion)
10 Chaos Marines w/ rhino and mark of khone (1 aspiring champion)
10 Raptors (1 aspiring champion)
10 Bikes (1 aspiring champion)
(possible flesh hounds as fast attack or give them to the Demonic Prince w/ chaos hound)
10 havocs w/ rhino (unsure how to equip them at this point)
dreadnaught (plasma and claw)
predator(autocannon and lascannon)
you probably should have posted this in army lists but anyway,
3700 is an odd army size, so u may want to downsize it to 3500 or up to 4000.
I dont know about giving a daemon prince an unholy steed and the HQ choices are posted vaugly so I cant really give feedback since you havent identitied the wargear. But id say your going in the right direction with them.
Oblitorators arent chosen
Its risky takig 20 berzerkers, u never know if they will run off at a unit you didnt want to charge, make break it into 2 squads of 10.
Mabye downside the havocs to 8 or 6. you dont really need that many.
other than that its not to bad
Bag of Chips, Chaos Warmaster
/27/ /6/ /5/
/6/ /0/ / 2 /
Only death will be guarding your angels, silently
Cripples joining arms in clamour
Institutionalized for the rebirth, the herd will be hunted
i figur'ed i should have posted in the army list, but i wanted to get the opinion of my fellow chaos players.
the *chosen* stands for 1 slot of elite taken by the chosen .. the obliterators take up another slot
i've been working on adding deamonic abilities and stuff but i honestly am not to sure what to add and what items to give it. i liked the steed, becuase of the 12'' charge .. so i can sit him behind the zerkers or the csm and have the csm's between my hq and the enemy, then w/ the hounds w/ the hq they move at the same rate so they will be able to charge the 12'' w/ the hq
i made the squad of 20 cuz my friend suggested it since i originally wanted to put them all in rhino's, but that is dangerous sincei don't want the rhino gett'n blown up .. so yea any mroe suggestions would be great !
A lot of this may already be done, but your army list isn't entirely fleshed out it looks like (not sure what a lot of units are equipped with, etc), so some of this may be useless, but here's my commentary.
First, you know that berserkers and "Chaos space marines with the mark of khorne" are one and the same, right? A berserker is simply a CSM with the mark of Khorne -- not sure why you have them listed in two manners in your army list.
Second, rhinos are always a risky proposition with Khorne, because you run the risk of the troops being gripped by blood rage and just jumping out and running off, which then either means you waste two turns getting them back into the rhino (bleh), or they just footslog from there on, which can mean a wasted investment in the rhino.
I'd reccomend equipping the raptors/havocs/bikes/etc with meltas, missile launchers, or lascannons, as appropriate, since berserkers lack the anti-vehicle power.
I'd also reccomend giving each AC in the berserker squads a powerfist to make sure they can pop any light distraction vehicles sent your way (an empty rhino, for instance, could keep a regular squad tied up for the whole game, but might keep a PF wielding AC tied up for 1-2 turns before they continue onwards). Also, make sure the berserkers all have bolt pistols and khornate chain axes -- 2 attacks normally, 3 on the charge, and a 4+ save is the best possible against them.
I'm a fan of giving raptors furious charge, bolt pistols/ccw, and 3 plasma pistols+ccw. Everyone gets 2 attacks, 3 on the charge, with S5/I5 on the charge, and can repeatedly drop out of combat on the opponents turn, fire their pistols into the unit they just retreated from, and then reassault (+1A, +1S/I again). Their high mobility is great, and since the entire unit has daemonic visage, they can crush units that aren't fearless or stubborn.
ok so i see that there is no point in giving my csm's the mark of khorne, so would it be better almost to not bother w/ rhino's w/ the zerkers since they could go into the blood rage? it seems like a chance, but w/ the ability to get them up to the enemy extra fast seems almost worth it, but they do get an extra d6 movement roll so maybe it would be better off not equiping them in rhino's. would i want to equip the regular marines in the rhino's or jus leave them in full squads ?
btw thanks for the help on the aspiring champs and raptors i'm reading about the weapons right after i type this.
I would give the ACs of the berserker squads Talismans of Burning Blood to help them move faster, since it lets them bloodrage and get the +d6" more often. This is generally the consensus on being the best way to get zerkers into cc.
As for your CSMs, if you're using them as regular marines, I'd give them the Mark of Chaos Undivided (re-roll failed morale checks if desired, only 1pt/marine), and depending on their roles, you may want to give them rhinos. If you want them to CC (kind of hold up the enemy while the zerkers get there), I'd give them bolt pistols + ccws and a rhino. I also might give each squad a flamer and maybe a meltagun or plasma gun. This way they can race up the field in the rhino, jump out, unleash a volley of flamers, bolter fire, and some decent AP (melta or plasma) shots, then assault on the turn after. Meanwhile, your berserkers will be marching up the field at 6-12" per turn, while your other marines hold the enemy in CC so they're unable to whittle down your berserkers too much. Meanwhile, your daemon prince could probably go HQ hunting or just hit some squads at the same time as the rhino squads. This is what it looks like your army is probably geared towards doing -- high CC with decent mobility. Your force would basically hit in about 3-5 "waves" of troops:
First into combat: Bikes (depending on if they turboboost ahead of the army or not)
Second into combat: Daemon Prince w/retinue, Raptors, Bikes (if not turboboosting), daemons being summoned
Third into combat: Rhino-mounted CSM squads (would disembark the turn before, but can't assault until the turn after)
Fourth into combat: Berserkers with their additional +d6" movement
Fifth into combat: Lt w/terminators, dreadnaught
I like this, as it keeps your force rather spread out, presents a multitude of targets, and once the first models are engaged in CC, it's more and more likely that your next units will make it into cc, since the prior units are stopping any shooting. Additionally, your dread and termies, moving the slowest but always being able to fire on the move, will be able to lay down supporting fire, and won't even have to enter combat if it looks as though more fire support is needed. On the otherhand, once they reach combat, if it looks as though a unit or gap needs to be filled in CC, they can be plugged in to help there. Finally, your pred, obliterators, and havocs will be laying down firesupport the entire time, which should help -- try to target heavy weapons squads and vehicles first.
The only real problem is that with two rhinos, the two CSM squads are very vulnerable to enemy anti-tank fire. It doesn't take much to crack a rhino, so it's possible the speed of the rhinos being completely neglected in the first or second turn by a heavy weapon squad or a tank targeting them.
One final thing to think about is you might be worth it to take your havocs with the mark of Slaanesh and give them noise blasters and sonic blasters -- they can dish out a hell of a lot of firepower, although they lack the AP of lascannons/missile launchers. I'm pretty sure this is legal -- I think Khorne-led armies can't take Tzeentch-marked troops, so Slaanesh-marked ones should be alright.
Thanks a lot for the help, according to the Codex that i have .. which i am not sure if it is new or not it says under the "ancient enemies" on pg, 38 that an hq w/ the mark of khorne can not have anything from the sleneesh army unless i'm reading this wrong which i could be. but if i am reading it wrong and i do give them the mark of slaneesh does that mean that they count as an elite choice or do i have to give one of my hq's the mark of slaneesh ??
also, how many troops should i have my squads of zerkers consist of?? because i'm not sure what the hole favored units thing stands for.
any ideas how i should equip my dp .. i' like the idea of mounting him on a steed for a few reasons, but i'm not sure how else i should equip him.
also does mutated hull help much for the rhino's ?
It's possible a Khorne-led army can't take a slaanesh-marked unit. I don't have my codex with me at the moment, so I couldn't remember if Khorne's enemy was Slaanesh or Tzeentch. If it's Slaanesh, just ignore what I said about Slaanesh havocs.
As far as how big your zerker squads should be, they should be 8 to be a favored unit. However, you don't really gain any benefit for having a unit of 8 berserkers unless you are playing a pure Khorne (World Eaters) army. I'd suggest units around 10-15ish strong. This will make them large enough to survive a decent amount of fire and make it into combat fairly intact, but not so large that you'll be left with a lot of models hanging out of base-to-base and missing out on their attacks and such.
As for mutated hulls on the rhinos, I'm sure it would help, but it's pretty expensive. It's 3/5 the cost of a single rhino -- it might just be better to get another rhino or some such (maybe a landraider for the Lt and Chosen Termies, if you like landraiders).
Next, the DP is a matter of personal preference. You can pretty much do anything you want with him. As a Khorne DP, I'd reccomend taking the berserker glaive on him, but you can't mount him on a steed if you do. If you don't want to do that, a steed, Feel No Pain, Dreadaxe, CCW, D Strength, D Stature (not sure if you can take stature with a steed, hm), spiky bits, and furious charge would be decent. He'll be hitting like a truck with S6/7 on the charge, ignoring all saves (no invulnerable or regular saves allowed), hitting at I6 on the charge, I5 normally, and would have a 3+ save followed by a 4+ to ignore a wound. Spiky bits let you re-roll a miss, which is basically just a free attack unless you don't miss any, which is good, too. Another option would be to take the Dark Blade instead of the dreadaxe, which would allow invulnerable saves to be taken, but would make him strike at S8/S9 on the charge, which would squish lots of models with an instantkill wound. The CCW (close combat weapon) will give him an extra attack. You could also add D Mutation, which would give another attack, which should give him something like 6 (3+1 for Khorne+1 for CCW+1 for mutation), or 7 on the attack. These will all make a semi-pricey HQ (200ish points, most likely, which isn't that much for a 3800 pt list). Just make sure he's legal. 150 points of wargear, with a max of 100 points of daemonic gifts (which includes any daemon weapons, but does not include marks).
yea i have been looking a lot at the deamon prince post the the LT posts, and i have been comming up with some ideas, which u mentioned both of the ones i was thinking w/ the dread axe and the darkblade. i'm not to sure bout the glaive only because they can't move to far, and i beleive he becomes a single char but i'll have to read it again.
i only have 1 rhino bought atm, so i could put the termies in the landraider assuming i bought one .. but wouldn't the raider take up one of my Heavy supports? i have a box of havocs, a dread, and a predator as well, but the havocs i can jus add them to the csm squads if i get the raider, but i'm not to sure how i would run the raider in my army probably because i never thought about it.
The landraider would take a heavy support slot, yes. And the DP will become an independent character if he has the glaive...forgot you had a retinue with him. The dreadaxe and dark blade are both good choices though, in my opinion.