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  1. #1
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    Tooled Champions

    Everyone is likely to have their own seperate opinions on this.

    I don't think it is worth paying the points to get a really good champion.

    You can have lots of bodies, and the champion will be able to do the damage you payed for him to do.

    However, do you consider that the champion could do almost the same damage for a fair few points less?

    Take the pair of lightning claws for example.

    Being able to reroll wounds is great, and means more kills. But there is always the chance that you wound the first time, meaning it was useless, or that you fail the second time, meaning that it was useless.

    It is obviously going to be useful and useless in the course of the game, so you could see that as therefore being useful?

    The point is, would 20 more points elsewhere be used better (changing to a power weapon instead)?

    This same story is applied to daemonic mutation, daemonic strength, and spiky bits, three other popular champion gifts.

    For example, daemonic strength is only going to help 1/6 of your hits. It is also only helpful if you hit. It is of course likely to be useful during the course of the game, but is it worth 5p?

    The answer, imo, is no. Spending points on improving something by a small amount doesn't result in points well spent.

    People take them because they believe their AC is protected and is going to do the damage to cut up the unit.

    I argue that these champions die game after game, that the ~60p AC is going to die just like any other marine. A much cheaper champion is going to be almost as good as a tooled champion, and you will therefore be able to make the rest of your army better.

    I do believe that power weapons and power fists are justified however. These attacks often prove critical in determining the squad that wins the combat.

    Now, I guess some might say that a tooled champion is going to increase the chances of winning combats and thus sweeping advance the enemy unit.

    All I say is that you should consider how much more likely you are going to win combat with a tooled AC.

    For example, if you assaulted guard, say you have a 90% chance of winning combat. Having the tooled champion increases it to 95%. Was it worth the extra points?

    I hardly think so.

    Comments?

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

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  3. #2
    LO Zealot th0r's Avatar
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    Think about giving your champion an upgrade to strength and therefore being strength 5 and being able to wound toughness 3 troops on a 2+. Then combine with a power weapon and all of a sudden your swatting down SoB. Also you can give your champion a Kai gun and mow down SM in the shooting phase. I always find a tooled up champion to be worth the points even against a lesser foe that I would normally beat anyway. Because you never know when your dice rolls are going to go south and that one upgrade may be the difference from saving your expensinve squad to having them run down by conscripts.
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  4. #3
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    Yes, indeed, you've fallen for the same trap as a lot of people!

    This is the point of the thread, give you a think about what you so blindly believe.

    You can swat guard on a 2+. Therefore, on all your hits, whenever you roll a 2 it has been helpful.

    Therefore 1/6 of your hits in a game.

    At 5p it sounds cheap, but will he really make 5p more in vp if he dies?

    Say you are against guard as you said.

    You kill 4 without d.strength vs 5 with it.

    You win anyway, they fail their ld, and you sweeping advance them. Did it help at all?

    No.

    Say they passed their ld. Are they really posing a threat at 1 more man? As I said, d.strength is only helping 1/6 of the champions hits. Yes a unit with a champion with d.strength is going to be better than one without, of course. But it is only going to be better occasionally, and I do not believe it is worth 5p.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Wookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlainari
    Yes, indeed, you've fallen for the same trap as a lot of people!...But it is only going to be better occasionally, and I do not believe it is worth 5p.
    Ok...Now the rhetorical question becomes "how much tooling is too much tooling?" Anyone care to elaborate?
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  6. #5
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    299 (x7)

    Take power weapons and power fists. That's my opinion.

    I was talking to th0r about this in chat. I think I should clarify something.

    If you have 1 unit with a champin with daemonic strength, am I going to consider that and tell you to remove it?

    Not likely. I don't see much of a problem with daemonic strength, it is occasionally useful.

    The main reason I wouldn't comment on it is because it's a measly 5p, and until you can get 1/3 of a marine I don't think it's a bad idea to spend 5 spare points of daemonic strength.

    This is what I'm saying. I could do this or that. For example, I could give an aspiring champion a master crafted pair of lightning claws and absolutely kick in combat, or I could just buy a power weapon, still do well in combat, and pay 30p to give a unit of 10 infiltrate.

    Not a hard choice? Hopefully you'd agree infiltrating is better.

    Now, I could give an aspiring champion daemonic strength, or I could give a 5 man unit with a heavy weapon stealth adept (+1 cover save).

    In my opinion I would be better off with stealth adept, because it is likely to be more useful.

    However, most chaos armies can't get stealth adept.

    If you have 4 champions with daemonic strength, I would say to reconsider. But giving daemonic strength to the one champion using up spare points to make the unit better is not a bad choice.

    Pretty much the same for daemonic mutation and spiky bits. Both are pretty damn useful, more so than daemonic strength. But they cost more, and thus it is more likely to find a better use for the points. (Not saying likely, just more likely).
    Last edited by onlainari; August 15th, 2005 at 08:19.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  7. #6
    Senior Member SPACMARINE's Avatar
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    For my Iron Warriors army I rarely even buy aspiring champions, sure the extra leadership is nice, but then again the mark of undivided takes care of my marines pretty well. I don't think I would use an aspiring champion in anything other than a squad that expects to get in close combat. However in the past I have used them and the most effective champion (a balance of overall cost versus killiness) would be a simple power weapon or power fist. They can be the difference between life or death for a squad!
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  8. #7
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    I'm a newbie to chaos, I only had my first games a week ago. I talk to a lot of veterans who blindly believe daemonic strength on power weapons and daemonic mutation on power fists.

    I agree that these are clever combinations.

    I just think that sometimes, you can't find the points for them, these daemonic gifts aren't good enough to lose more men.

    Especially if all your squads have even numbers or are favourite numbers etc.

    Using spare points on daemonic gifts is a good idea. Sacrificing useful skills, models, or weaponry for them is not.
    Last edited by onlainari; August 15th, 2005 at 22:58.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  9. #8
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    Lanchaster's Square Law.

    An upgrade that increases the punch of a unit by a factor of x is only worth an increase of cost of sqrt(x), as otherwise the alternative of more troops will get you a better effect since it not only increases your punch but also your resilience.


    Being able to reroll wounds is great, and means more kills. But there is always the chance that you wound the first time, meaning it was useless, or that you fail the second time, meaning that it was useless.

    It is obviously going to be useful and useless in the course of the game, so you could see that as therefore being useful?

    The point is, would 20 more points elsewhere be used better (changing to a power weapon instead)?

    This same story is applied to daemonic mutation, daemonic strength, and spiky bits, three other popular champion gifts.

    For example, daemonic strength is only going to help 1/6 of your hits. It is also only helpful if you hit. It is of course likely to be useful during the course of the game, but is it worth 5p?
    On the other hand, all these things apply to the alternative way to spend the points too. Additional marines depend on to hit rolls just as much as power weapon attacks.
    Daemonic strength only helps 1/6 of the hits - but that's misleading. Against an enemy of toughness equal to your unmodified strength it increases your chance to succeed not by 16.7% but by 33.3%.
    respectively, agaisnt an opponent with a toughness that is two higher than your unmodified strength it even doubles your effectiveness.
    The relevant thing isn't how many of your total attacks get to benefit of it, but how many compared to those which would succeed without it.

  10. #9
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    Ah, yes, it increases your chance to hit by varying percentage. I guess it is misleading, but it is in no way incorrect, it will only help on 1/6 of your hits.

    And that is an interesting law.

    The way I see it, you look at what you can do with your spare points. You work out which one is a better use.

    Hardly any army list can be built where you are not left with up to 100 points to fiddle around with once you've bought your core force.

    All I'm arguing is that daemonic gifts and spiky bits are actually part of the 'spare points', as opposed to say the 10 chaos space marine, you want 10, so the ~150p you spend on them is not spare points.

    In other words, not taking daemonic strength or mutation can be effective too. I'm just getting sick of the narrow mindedness (not on this forum) and blindness of gamers that refuse to backdown in telling me that I need these daemonic gifts.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  11. #10
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    I guess it is misleading, but it is in no way incorrect, it will only help on 1/6 of your hits.
    True, but e.g, daemonic strength against a tyranid monstrous creature (T6) will double your punch, even though it only affects 1/6 of all hits.
    Terminator armour only has a 1/6 better chance to save, but effectively you're twice as resilient against normal attacks against it than with power armour.

    The 1/6 figure may be technically correct, but it's meaningless.

    In other words, not taking daemonic strength or mutation can be effective too. I'm just getting sick of the narrow mindedness (not on this forum) and blindness of gamers that refuse to backdown in telling me that I need these daemonic gifts.
    Yes, of course. Especially as a tyranid player there are few things i fear more than 80 marines in 1500pts, an army which doesn't waste any points with excessive wargear other than the casual hidden power fist and the casual weapon upgrade.

    However, especially in regards to certain armies things like daemonic strength are too good not to take them. In case of a blessed size rubric squad the aspiring champion has a large part of its whole close combat power - at three attacks and with a power weapon easily like 50% of it when going against other marines.
    Daemonic strength will increase his punch by +33%, thus providing a +16.7% punch increase in close combat to the entire unit. Due to lanchaster's square law this is worth a 1.08 times cost increase of the unit. Let's halve that to 1.04, as the unit won't spend all time in close combat, and daemonic strength doesn't help with shooting.
    For a unit that costs 250+pts this then still means that this five point upgrade would actually be worth ten pts. Thus it's a good deal, a very good deal. Especially when one considers that this punch won't be affected by the first casualties, it will remain until the very end. A rubric marine squad that got decimated to nothing but the AC will still retain half of its original close combat punch, and even more with the upgrade (this is a weak spot of aforementione LSL, it assumes that the punch increase is evenly distributed through the squad. To a certain degree it even invalidates LSL for squad characters, and changes it to an almost linear law).
    If the champ as mutation or a master crafted weapon, then these figures even can increase, as his relative share of the total close combat punch of the squad increases. Of course for the cost of master crafting and so on similar calculations can be made.
    Last edited by ArchonAstaroth; August 16th, 2005 at 01:29.

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