Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Alright, the basic question is which is better? increased toughness or increased wounds?
Increased toughness vs. strength three weapons is obviously better. For each shot that lands the enemy needs a six to wound (if using chaos marines anyway), hence a 17% of wounding. If you had increased wounds for each hit that landed, yes the to wound score would be 5+still which isnt bad, a 33% chance of wounding. but this means double the amount of hits will wound. So due to the same armour save of 3+ (power armour) 33% of all wounds will no be saved. E.g.
a unit of 10 guardsmen shoot (long range) at a squad of deathguard (toughness 5), on average 50% of the shots will land. so five hits land, of these only 17% will wound, that is only 0.85 wounds. Of this wound there is a 67% of saving it, meaning from ten shots only 0.006 unsaved wounds per ten shots from guardsmen.
With increased wounds the same calculations will end up with 1.65 wounds, and 0.01 unsaved wounds per ten shots, almost double the amount of potential wounds.
Yes, guardsmen struggle against marines in any, well except those good damn tanks.
Using the same calculations against marines, e.g strength 4 shots and a higher BS.
From ten shots an average of 6.7 shots will hit. From this, on toughness 5, 2.2 will wound and 0.7 wont be saved. With increased wounds, 2 wounds, 3.35 shots will wound and 1.1 wont be saved.
Right no more maths, from this it shows that toughness is easily the better option for troopers, i am not saying that i wouldnt have increased wounds aswell, but thats just cheating.
This is one of the reasons that from playing and collecting both a Thousand son and a Deathguard army, i have chosen the plague ridden ones.
Other reasons why i believe Deathguard to be a superior force to most chaos legions are that:
- The special rule "True Grit" means that in hand to hand Deathguard always strike with 2 attacks
- The lack of any heavy weapons on troops means that you never have to worry about moving instead of shooting, you can always shoot your specialist weaponary even if you have moved.
- The daemon weapons and upgrades available to Nurgle are pretty damn good. A man reaper equipped lieutenant or lord, with daemon strength is capable of taking out a squad of guardsmen, guardians, gaunts or firewarriors in a single turn, and thats without being backed up by his retinue, which i think is a must. Even marine units will take heavy casualties from him, and he doesnt ever run away! If nothing else hes going to hold up the enemy for quite a while due to the toughness!
Ok there are weaknesses. The lack of long range weaponary is sorely missed, but if you take a dreadnought (or three like i do), a defiler or a predator you can make up for this. You just have to be careful and shield them with cover, other vehicles etc.
Also having two plasma guns or two melta guns in each troop squad is very nice, capable of taking out all but the toughest armour, and 4 shots per turn (rapid fired plasma guns) is nothing to be sniffed at.
Anyway gone on for too long now, but if any one has the patience to read this, please give me your views on what ive said, if you disagree or you can suggest a better all round chaos army.
Your maths is floored because of its premis, against certain strengths then the extra toughness increases the chance of wounding by one in six for each hit and in some cases (when a 5 is normally needed to wound) this is very impresive because it doubles the protection, However adding a second would will always double the survivability unless facing instakill, in which case the toughness increase is also mute)
a more accurate consideration is to include the points cost, but since you rarely if ever have the choice to up either T or W on a direct and individual basis (i.e. rule out stuff like bikes cos they give you other stuff besides increased toughnes)
Can not understand why you ask the question
Everything you have been told is a lie!
What i was trying to emphasise was that removing the number of hits that wound earlier, e.g. at the rolling to wound stage is a better alternative than to rely upon saving more wounds upon your armour save.
Yes i admit that in certain cases the increased wounds is much more favorable, such as in the case of higher strenth weapons that done case instant death, e.g plasma guns and weapons that always wound on a 4+ e.g. sniper rifles.
But in cases where armour saves are ignored but the strength of hit is high, e.g. power weapons, which are faced often, then the increased toughness will be of greater benefit as it is basically your first line of defence against an attack.
In anycase i was just trying to put forward my arguements are to why i believe Deathguard are the most versatile of the chaos legions, i am trying to provoke people into putting forward their views and arguements as to why another legion is better or if they agree with me and have other reasons.
but anyway thankyou for the response at least it has provoked some replies
Actually can i ask a question Cheredanine, from your picture can i assume you collect sisters of battle? I collect them also and was wondering if you had any tactics, battle choices or other useful information that you are willing to share?
That last comment should be posted in the SoB forum.
Ze titles yez...
When in doubt,
Smite.<SilverMane> I would trust BID with my life
<SilverMane> HEIL BID!
<Adrian-> BiD is Omnipotent; All Knowing, All Powerful!
<Scary_Troopers> I see you as an optimist, GT. : D
But what of the midgets!?
=]Front in favour of Moderation of the Harshest kind.[=
Sorry about that
But you have to relise as well, its almost double, for double the wounds. So while its a .006 chance to kill a deathguard marine, its really a .005 chance to kill a thousand son marine. Say 18 las shots are fired (eaiser number to work with) 9 hits, 3/1.5 wounds. Now put that up against a number marines of equal point values. 24 Plauge marines, 19 1000 sons. So per volley of 18 shots the tzeetnch lose 1 wound out of 38, while the plauge marines lose .5 (rougly) So it takes 39 volleys of 18 shots to kill the 1000 sons squad, while 39 volleys kills 19.5 death guard marines. So (if my math is correct) The real reason why deathguard surive better, is due to there cost, while increased toughnesss is equal to increased wound in this case. In fact there pretty much equal except against s 7 weapons, where the thousand sons come out ahead.
And most verstile legion is the black legion.
And the best legion is... night lords =D
Oh, and before I forget, welcome to the hordes of chaos! Cast down the foolish ways of our brethren, and take up arms in the fight for Chaos!
Fair enough black legion have access to the largest range of weaponary and quite handy with it too, but having an army than never runs away and as you say takes 39 volleys of 18 shots to kill 19 is kinda handy at sticking around on the battlefield.
Remember that deathguard dont have to take any moral checks if they loose 25% of their squad to firing, which is much more likely to happen in a black legion army. The more moral checks you are forced to make the more you will fail and the more time will be spent not assaulting the enemy or being out of range.
I do admit i am very bias in my choice of army but there are reasons behind it.
anyway thanks for the comment