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  1. #1
    Member Smoking Barrel's Avatar
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    Lost and Damned Tactics

    As the title suggests i am hoping for the more experienced LatD players give an input on some tactics or unit summaries on units of the Lost and the Damned. Something like mutants, how to/not to use them, key features and so on. I am thinking of starting LatD because they are not common and very customizable and am hoping that i and other potential players can use the posts to start a LatD army.

    Hope to See Some Good Input

    "Battlecannon shells are falling on my head but that doesn't mean i soon will be dead nannanana" A tribute to that terminator sweet 2+ save.

    And then there as those days when it gets hosed down with some plasma.......as it happened today damn you tau crisis suits!! :mad:

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    Spiky MindRaked's Avatar
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    LaTD Army explanation

    [This post will be updated frequently, keep looking]

    Hi, this my first tactica / army explanation, so please be indulgent. Also, my mother language is French, so my sentences might lack of structure. If so, feel free to send me a private message to show me my mistake, but don’t flood the post with remark about my english writing.

    Lost and the Damned. My first advice is to read the rules at least twice, if not more. There are many small details that can make a difference between a good and a poor army. Now, you’ll have to understand the versatility of this army list prevent me from covering every single issue and this is not my intention.

    My second advice is this one : If you don’t like to loose, don’t even try this army. It is hard to play, and you’ll loose many battle before you’ll understand how it really works.

    Specific legions

    The LaTD can represent a small renegade imperial force that choose to free itself from the emperor grip. It can also represent the cult extension of a specific chaos legions. If so, you can use the specific legions rules only for HQ, Possessed, Defilers and allied units, THESE RULES CANNOT BE APPLIED TO LOST AND THE DAMNED UNITS. This is very important.

    HQ

    Marks of chaos
    I won’t explain how those marks works, but I will say this : Mark of Chaos Undivided is an excellent choice when your champions lead close combat units as close combats is where you’ll loose most of your men. The other marks are OK, but not good.

    Arch Heretic

    Standard issue Chaos Space Marine Lieutenant. The nice part is that he doesn’t have to look like a standard Chaos Space Marine, but he still have the stats. So feel free to model it any way you want, as long as he look impressive enough to be standing at the head of a mutant / traitor army (they did not deserted to follow a looser).

    If playing a "Stand and shoot" strategy, This guy should be keep behind the line and be used to kill those scary monsters / characters that your opponent tend to fields. Therefore, you should tool them with CC Weapons (Power weapons, Lightning claws, special or daemon weapons), anything that will allow your Arch Heretic to join a melee and affect the outcome. Another idea is to send him with your CC units (Mutants, Big Mutants, Mounted Traitors, Gibbering Hordes and / or Chaos Hounds), but he won't add much effect as those units are already very dangerous melee fighters.

    Aspiring Champions

    Those guys are actually Chosen Aspiring Champions (look a the point cost, it perfectly match) that chose a “Freelance” job. They must be used with care as they may become an hindrance to your traitors squads. They are best used to boost your Mutants squads (see below) or to help Traitors squads used as CC fighters (when mounted in Chimera or Rhino).

    Greater Daemons

    I realy have nothing to say other than they have to possess an Aspiring Champion, and cannot enter the real world by possessing an Agitator or a Mutant Bosses. They are great.


    Elite

    Big Mutants

    Those guys are big ! You can build them by mixing WFB Ogre with 40 K Ork, Tyranids and Ogryn parts and green stuff, or anything that you see fit. They are excellent melee fighters and tends to last in close combat. For the cost of a Thousand Sons, you get 1 more wound, +2T, +1A and you strike in initiative order, but they have a 5+ armour save, which is poor. If you choose to field those brutes, you’ll need at least 5 of them and your best tactic is to send them in close combat as soon as possible, to prevent them from being shot. I also recommend the use of more than 1 squad as they are a source of stress for your opponent and a great distracting element.

    They also come with a lot of possible upgrades :

    You can increase their armour save at the cost of initiative. That may useful against marines as their bolters will nullify their armour save. But the point cost is still high.

    You can also equip 2 of those monsters with flamers or heavy stubbers (Assault 3). The fact of having BS2 means that they won’t do much damage using the heavy stubber, but the flamer might come in handy.


    Possessed

    They are a “like / don’t like” kind of unit. But they are Boosted Space Marine. Any questions ? I personnaly don’t recommend them in this kind of army, but you’re free to disagree with me.

    Daemon pack

    Why would an imperial soldier join chaos if it’s not for having a chance to meet daemons. Well, don’t disappoint this little fellow and use at least 1 daemonic unit in your army. Daemons are part of the CC solution. As they can be summoned from eighter Mutants or Traitor squads, they might save the day against Space Marines and Tyranids. There are complete tactica all over the web about daemons pack, so I won’t go any further on those.

    Troop

    Traitors

    “Sir, if I chose to become a deserter, it's because I believe in free will and freedom. That’s why I chose to submit myself to the might of Chaos (please don’t kill me).” Those guys are exactly like IG standard troopers, except for the fact that they can be equipped to go melee and, as long as there is no AC assigned to their squad, they can infiltrate for free. The last part is the best one. This mean that you can usually field a big chunk of your army after your opponent has deployed, you then deploy in response to his deployment, and have the opportunity to choose the best positions for all your mens.

    OK, Traitors are not so great. They are equipped with flashlight as guns and each unit occupy a single choice of the organisation chart (in opposition to the IG platoon). This mean that you’ll have to use them carefully. The good point is that you can include heavy weapons team and special weapons in your squads. Infiltrating heavy weapons is always a good thing.

    These units should be used in a “Stand and shoot” strategy, or to flank the enemy as your mutants are slowly advancing to join the battle. A realy Chaotic player could want to tool all his squads with CC weapons and make it an assault army, which is not a bad idea, but this is also risky if you're not playing against units that have more than T3.

    Mutants

    This is the other part of the CC solution in a Lost and The Damned army. Never use less than 20 of those putrefied fellows. They have 2 attacks, no matter what happens, they are resilient and they can be given chaos gifts. On the other side, they are foot sluggers and so they advance slowly and they are poor shooters. My recommendation is to field at least 2 of those angry mobs and to equip them all with firearms (for free) as you gain long range capacity and do not loose any attacks. But be careful while firing because firearms get hot and you might loose as much models as your enemy. But it’s always nice to have 30 mutants rapid firing 60 shots at a Standard 10 SM tactical squad (statisticaly, 1/3 of the shots will cause wound).

    You can “upgrade” your mutants squads with chaos gifts. This might be a good thing as well as a bad thing. Having your poor mutants cost more than your traitors is not necessarily a good thing, but some upgrades can be usefulls. Again, read all the rules carefully.

    Plagues zombies are great, especially if you play a Nurgle legion extension, they will never flee (Sidebox on page 44 of Eye of Terror codex). The idea of fielding 6 Plague Zombies Squads is always frightning (4+ save, they resist to bolters !!!!!!).

    Gibbering Horde

    Nurglings, that’s what they are. They are best used to support Traitors that gets assaulted or to prevent such assault to happen by standing in front of you Traitors squads. The last option is to protect your vehicles. But remember that they occupy a troop choice (you need troops).

    Fast Attack

    Chaos Hounds

    They cost too much for their ability to deal significant damage. Nearly no armour save, they will go down before they will reach anything valuable. If you choose to use those, be sure to field many full squads or to provide them with some backup, such as bikes. Otherwise, they can become great counter charge units.

    Daemonic Beast

    Same as daemons.

    Sentinels

    My favorites. They are a good way to hunt light armoured vehicles and they are infiltrating, so they can support infiltrating traitors. My favourite configuration is a full squadron of 3 sentinels, equipped with 2 multi-laser and 1 auto-cannon. Fire at swarms, shoot dreadnoughts and rhinos and Dark Eldars Raider and Land Speeders and Eldars Walkers, and pretty much anything that might appear dangerous to your Traitors / Mutants Squads. And they are cute. If you choose to infiltrate your traitors to flank your opponent, the sentinels will provide a nice heavy support. In smaller games, you could divide 1 squadron in 3 FA choice and hunt 3 target at the same time, that's when the lascannon option become usefull.

    Roughriders

    I don’t know much about those [please someone help me here].

    Hellhound

    Move 12” and Flame at 24”. Except if you are playing against swarm, this unit is not cost effective, even for IG players. Well, this is my opinion and I’ll be more than happy to be proven wrong.

    Traitors in Chimera or Rhino

    And yes, you must count any Traitor unit in transports as a fast attack choice. A chimera is always a good choice as it can support your squad and is more resilient than Rhinos. But rhinos cost less and are designed to be exclusively used as transport vehicles. The vehicle is your choice, here are my recommendations. First of all, as a LaTD player, you have the freedom to equip your Traitors with CC weapons, which means that you can build “assault squads”. So what ? So, assisted by an CSM AC, those guys can do some good if used adequately. Each guy have 3 attack on assault + CSM AC + Agitator = a lot of attack for a ~100 points squad. Now, imagine 3 of those.

    An other option is to use these FA choices to field more traitors in a “Stand and shoot” strategy and to use Chimera as transports. During the first turn, you redeploy your units 12” away at a strategically better position, this might slightly disorientate your opponent.

    Heavy Support

    Defiler

    Fluffwise, they are a great addition to your army. Gamewise, the basilisk is better.

    Chaos Spawn

    WTF ? Spawns that moves on their own. They tend to be impredictable, and that’s not so good. But it’s always nice to have the potential to roll 30 attack with only 5 models. They will never fall back. If you look proud enough while fielding those, you opponent will loose his time trying to bring those monsters down. They are nice while used in conjunction with Big Mutants and Gibbering Hordes or to support Mutants squads, and they don’t cost much for their abilities : Another 100 points squad.

    Leman Russ Battle Tank

    One of the best HS choice in this game. One is always good, two is better. OK, it cost more than a Basilisk and even more than the defiler, but this is hell against any army. Love it !!!

    Basilisk

    The ordinance weapon “par excellence”. Don’t cost much, can be configured to fire indirectly, every LaTD army should have at least 1.


    Allied Units

    NOTE : Units that are already placed in the LaTD organisation chart CANNOT be counted as allied units.

    Chaos Space Marines units (Allied Troop)

    If you’ve played CSM, you’ll understand that those guys are always good at everything. If you are playing a specific legion extension army, you should at least add one squad of this legion (preferably 2) to make it look as they are supporting / using the Traitors and Mutants.

    Bikes and Raptors (Allied Fast Attack)

    Obliterators (Allied Elite)

    One of the best elite choice, this unit will always do some good.

    ARMY SAMPLE

    I will add some more samples over the time


    -------------------------------------------------------
    500 points army : all strange units

    1 AC (~50 points)

    20 Mutants with firearms (120 points)

    10 Gibbering Hordes (100 points)

    1 Obliterator (70 points)

    3 chaos spawns (60 points)

    Basilisk (100 points)
    -------------------------------------------------------

    Nurgle army

    Very unbalanced army, mostly infantry

    3 x 28 Plague Zombies Units (3 x ~290 points)
    2 x 7 Nurgle Plague Marines (2 x ~180 points)
    1 x 10 Nurglings Bases (100 points)
    2 x 7 Big mutants (2 x 240 points)
    1 x 7 Plague Bearers (~120 points)
    1 x Plague Marines Lieutenan (~ 100 points)
    1 x Defiler indirect fire config (175 points)

    6 troops, 3 elite, 1 Heavy Support and 1 HQ

    Total : ~2000 points

    -------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by MindRaked; December 1st, 2005 at 20:25.
    MindRaked
    CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7

  4. #3
    Member Smoking Barrel's Avatar
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    wow awsome tactica i didnt think just one person would do what i wanted to do in this thread in one post. I suggest that when you are feel that you have done all you can on it that you present it to librarium to turn it into a tactica-article like all the other ones you see in the index of chaos articles.
    "Battlecannon shells are falling on my head but that doesn't mean i soon will be dead nannanana" A tribute to that terminator sweet 2+ save.

    And then there as those days when it gets hosed down with some plasma.......as it happened today damn you tau crisis suits!! :mad:

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    I posted this a while ago:

    Arch Heretic: Has the potential of being a very powerful HQ. He is pretty much the same as a CSM Lt, and should be used as such. A few varients would be a Dark Blade and Daemonic Mutation for as much power as possible, or with a Kai Gun to deal some ranged damage. Just be aware that he isn't going to have the CC backup as in a regular CSM army. I would really only use him with inducted CSM. If he walks with mutants or spawn he'll be in combat too late. If he charges off by himself he will have no support for a turn or two. Overall, I give it a 6-7/10

    Aspiring Champions: Quite a useful little HQ. They have the killing power of an Arch-Heretic with the tradeoff of being far less able to take damage. But you can have 3! The most important thing that you will give him will be his mark, so I'll try to do a run-down:
    Khorne: A great mark if you give him a powerfist and daemonic mutation, then throw him in with some mutants. That way he has 5 powerfist attacks on the charge, which is a nifty little surprise. And because he's not an Independant character the enemy will have to rip through all the mutants before they get to him.
    Nurgle: Though it's nice having a T5 AC, I struggle to see the point. He's not an IC, so he won't be picked out. I think 20 mutants is much better.
    Slaanesh: I'd just prefer to give him furious charge. But it would be very nice if you gave him a Dark Blade. Throw him up against terminators then and watch them drop.
    Tzeentch: Pretty simple. Do you want him to be a sorcerer or not? Bolt of Change or Doom Bolt would be some nice gifts if he's foot-slogging with the troops, otherwise Winds of Chaos or Gifts of Chaos is a great choice.
    Undivided: Awfully expensive, though it does let your squad re-roll leadership. I would say it was very important if you were going with mutants with any upgrade except Bloated, but more on that later.
    I give them an 8/10

    Greater Daemon: It actually takes up two HQ slots, one for the Daemon and one for the AC you will be possessing. It is a nice little surprise in the list to see a huge daemon jump out when the enemy was expecting just an AC with a power weapon. As far as which Daemon to go with:
    Bloodthirster: There really is no debate in my mind. The Bloodthirster is fast enough to get into combat even if he comes out of your AC on turn 2, 18" from the enemy. That, and he is more than capable of holding onto a front single-handedly until mutants get there. But I would advise against it. I'd take Daemonic chains just to ensure he comes out on Turn 3.
    Keeper of Secrets: I'd take it over the Bloodthirster for cost and psychic abilities. Just be sure you can summon it close enough because she's only moving 6" a turn.
    Great Unclean One: The other choice that I would go with. He's tough as nails and he has some very nice abilities with his nurgle gifts and daemonic powers. Again, make sure he's summoned close enough.
    Lord of Change: I really wouldn't go with this guy. I just don't see the point.
    8/10

    Inducted HQs:
    Lord/Daemon Prince: Well, here's your choice from the CSM codex. A Lord without stature wouldn't be that fantastic, just because I don't see much benefit over an Arch-Heretic. But, there are some benefits. If you induct Raptors you can give him Daemonic Flight and then have points for other funky abilities. That would be quite deadly. A Daemon Prince would vertainly be a fire magnet for the enemy if you gave him daemonic stature. From experience I find him slightly less effective than in a CSM list. He simply doesn't have the CC support that he gets from a standard CSM list (unless you induct it for him). I would prefer a Bloodthirster if I was taking a Monstrous Creature.
    6/10 (can be nasty, but it will cost you in points and troops slots).

    Elites:
    Big Mutants: Guard Players would jump for joy if their Ogryns were able to get a 4+ save. My thoughts on Big Mutants are probably different from a lot of others. I think a squad of Big Mutants is very intimidating. With 3 wounds each and a 4+ save they're nothing to be galked at. Bolter fire isn't going to cut it with those stats. That being said, they'd be 30 points each if you took them, and they'll need to soak a lot of firepower. If you are going up against an enemy that can't instant-kill them quickly, then they'll be useful, if not, they're a point sink. Up against Guard and Space Marines they're rubbish. They'll have varying success against others. Don't use them until 1750+ though.
    5/10

    Possessed: In my opinion, just as useful as in the CSM list. My preference is to give them talons and charge them into squads of Terminators and other big nasties and see them drop. Standard PCSM fare.
    7/10

    Daemon Packs: These guys are just as useful as they would be in an undivided force, provided you have a fast unit that can run up and summon them close. I'll go throught them:
    Bloodletters: Fantastic for cutting through power and terminator armour. These guys are seriously awesome against heavily armoured foes. That being said, they cannot go up against a mob of orks and expect success. Choose your targets carefully. These guys are squad assassins.
    Daemonettes: Similar in their use to Bloodletters, though cheaper. The tradeoff is that they will probably be dead after their first combat, so make them count.
    Plaguebearers: I really only think they're good up against ICs in the LatD list. A little too specific in purpose for my taste.
    Horrors: I never liked Horrors, and I doubt I ever will. A weak choice.
    Flamers: Now we're talking. Giving LatD flamers is giving them some hardcore firepower. I have had huge success with a squad of 9 flamers in my LatD list. Point, shoot, dead. Pretty much anything is falling to a round of these guys. If you're going with a Traitor heavy list, I would definitely advise these guys.
    5-8 depending on what type of army you're using.

    Inducted Elites:
    Terminators: They do about the same as CSM terminators in a CSM list. Nice fire support in any varient of the LatD list you go with.
    5/10 (I have never had great success with termies)

    Obliterators: Can you smell the burning? They're obliterators.
    8/10

    Marked Troops: I'll split these up individually:
    Berserkers: A great elites choice for a CC heavy army. These guys are fast enough to get into CC on turn 2 and can really tie up enemy shooting units. If I were to use a GD or a DP I would definitely have at least one choice of these guys to offer them some support. Probably the best CC squad you can get in LatD. 8/10
    Plague Marines: Another fantastic troop choice to get. Just like in a Death Guard army, these guys are tough as nails to get rid of. A great fluffy contribution with Plague Zombies as well. 7/10
    Noise Marines: Some really good fire support in an army that really doesn't have a great shooting capacity. One or two squads of these guys tooled up with sonic weaponary will add some much needed long-range horde control. 7/10
    Thousand Sons: Poor guys, they don't really add much. They're tough, but Plague Marines are better in that respect. For their cost (as much as I love them) they aren't much better than normal marines. And you can get 3 ACs with the sorcerer ability for HQs, so the Thousand Son sorcerers don't add much. But, good for a fluffy army. 4/10

    Troops:

    Traitors: These guys are better than they look. Yes, they are just guardsmen without the benefit of doctrines, but they have one huge advantage: they can come in squads of 5. That means that you can have a squad of 5 traitors with a lascannon and a plasma gun for 70 points! That's a nasty squad. Particularly because it can infiltrate.
    These guys are the mainstay for one of the big LatD armies: hordes of traitors. You can get 6 troop squads of 15 of these guys and then another 3 fast attack choices of 10 in Chimeras (or rhinos, but more on that later). I'll expand more on the usefulness of these guys in that army later, when I get to different armies. Suffice it to say, you will probably need a few squads of these guys for heavy weapon support in the game.
    6/10

    Mutants: Ah, mutants. The reason why we all (well, almost) got this list. These little servants of Chaos are surprisingly tough little buggers, and I'll assess them individually:
    No upgrades: Nice enough, but they're going to die pretty quickly, and they won't get to the enemy lines very much. A squad or two of twenty would really only be used as a diversion. And that's an expensive diversion.
    Khornate: Really, Str 4 is not that big a deal with you can get 3 mutants for the price of 2 upgraded ones of these. You'll be rolling more dice when you get to CC, and that's better than +1 to wound.
    Slaaneshi: They're either going to swarm the enemy, or be too few in number to do anything. Either way, more guys will have the same effect as this upgrade.
    Tzeentchian: I really cannot figure out how useful these guys will be, I'll have to do more play testing. Yes, you're still going down to bolter fire, but you are getting into CC on turn 2. I just don't think for 12 points (almost the cost of a marine), you're getting anything anywhere near as effective. I really wouldn't take these guys.
    Bloated: Ah, bloated mutants, love of my life, fire of my loins. These guys can take sickening amounts of damage in a game. 40-60 of these guys will be hugely difficult to take down with T4 and a 4+ save. I would go with these guys all the time except if you have fluffy reasons not to (like the skeletal hordes of a Tzeentch sorcerer, or something).
    Plague Zombies: Hmm, are they worth it? They are fearless, so your mutants won't run away. But, they're only moving D6 inches a turn (effectively). My opinion is that a big squad (30) of mutants will not be taking that many leadership tests, and will eventually get into combat with more mutants, even if they do break once. So I would probably go with Bloated Zombies over these guys. And for the next reason too.
    Boss: Bosses are a nasty surprise for your enemy. Give them a powerfist and they are doing 4 powerfist attacks on the charge! With a Khornate AC that's 9 powerfist attacks on the charge, which is just disgusting. And the great thing is that none of these guys are ICs. Mutants are fine and dandy, but it's the Boss with the powerfist that will really be doing the CC damage.
    Guns: Firearms suck. They will kill more of the enemy than you, I promise you. Lasguns, I'm not a big fan of. That is to say, lasguns will kill my guys more than the missile launchers headed at me, but mutants don't suit them very well. Hitting on 5's then wounding Meqs on 5s is not good odds, for me, particularly when I can't charge afterwards. I'd just stick with CC mutants.
    6/10. Mutants are the bomb, but they could do with being faster.

    Gibbering Hordes: I have personally never played with either these or Nurglings (being the same thing). I can imagine that they'd be very nice for tying up elite assault squads, but then so is a lot of stuff in your army. Their problem is they're a bit slow for my tastes. But for only 10 points a base I can definitely see them being useful. I'd fill out my list with these guys, provided you have the troops choices to spare.
    5/10

    Inducted Troops:
    CSM: Pretty much as good as in the CSM codex. Give them a missile launcher and a plasma gun for some long-range, reliable firepower. Give them CCW + BP to help your DP and deamons in combat. Either way, good stuff.
    6/10

    Fast Attack:

    Traitors in a transport: I am constantly in awe with the disgusting amount of damage a group of Traitors can do after popping out of a chimera and laying down some plasma death. A squad with a plasma gun and a boss with a plasma pistol is going to be doing some damage, particularly against marines. Use flamers for Ork and Nid hunting, and melta guns for Necrons and tanks. Great stuff.
    6/10

    Chaos Hounds: To me, these guys fill the gap that Gibbering Hordes should fill. They are fast and cheap, but they are also quite deadly. Not as good as Flesh Hounds, but they are more than twice as cheap. A great little flanker to run into devestator squads.
    6/10

    Daemonic Beasts:
    Flesh Hounds: Fast and strong. Because they move as cavalry they are really useful in this army.
    Screamers: These guys are pretty good. I consider them to be cheap raptors. A squad of these guys is going to give anything a run for their money. A solid choice.
    Raptors: Great little guys. Cheap, strong and fast. I think they perfectly compliment a LatD army. They're useful with DP and GD to offer some Turn 2 CC support.
    Mounted Daemonettes: As amazing as they are in normal CSM armies: not at all.
    7/10

    Sentinels: I actually really, really like sentinels. Autocannons or multi-lasers are my preferences. They keep them cheap, and they don't have to get so close as to use flamers. But, I must admit, I frequently use them with lascannons (ducks from the projectiles of IG players) just because I find myself lacking anti-tank support. Mobile and useful.
    6/10

    Roughriders: God, if they weren't AU$16 a model for something that's 8 points I would probably love them to bits. If you have the money, these guys are some great, fast shock troops. Hunting lances are really good against Meq armies.
    6/10

    Hellhound: Quite useful, though a tad expensive in my view for a flamer (though a damnably nasty flamer). I just dislike it.
    5/10

    Inducted FA:

    Raptors: Like everything inducted, their speed is what makes them really useful for this otherwise slow list. They do take a bit of know-how to use though, as they are quite expensive. if you know how to get them into CC, they are devestating.
    7/10

    Bikes: Bikes have to be one of my favourite units. They are fast, strong, and can have a 3+ invulnerability save. Just like raptors, they're great to get into CC fast. I also like taking these guys as marked squads (though they will then be elites). Khornate bikes are great for CC and Slaanesh bikes lay down huge amounts of firepower (6 bikes with 18 shots, and they can still charge!). Just watch out, because they're very expensive.
    7/10

    Heavy Support:

    Spawn: AU$40 for a model for 20 points! Good God! I made mine out of Ork and Marauder sprues, which is a much better way to go. I actually have had great luck with these guys. Sure, they're not fast, but they're tough. 100 points for 5, and they will be sucking up so much firepower. If they go down, your other units will get a reprieve from shooting. If they get into combat, even with one or two, they are disgustingly effective. And the good news is that they are only instant-killed with S10 weapons. One higher strength would be nice, but I actually really like these guys.
    6/10

    Defiler: As far as the ordinance available to you goes, I like this one the least. It's big, it's nasty, but it's more expensive than a basilisk and dies just as quickly. Great for fluffy armies, not great otherwise.
    5/10

    Leman Russ: Good old Lemons (all disrespect to Space Wolves intended ). This guy (and you can only have one) is just as effective as in a Guard army, and will be doing huge amounts of damage. Watch it, though, because they can be taken down quickly by armies like Tau and Necrons.
    7/10

    Basilisk: The best Heavy support choice for this army, in my opinion. Basilisks are hugely effective at taking down troops. There's not much else I can say, except find some juicy cover.
    9/10

    Inducted Heavy:

    You Wish (As do I wish. Santa, give me a squad of Havocs in my LatD army for Christmas)


    Synergy:
    With all that being said, you'll notice something really irritating in my analysis: everything is about 6-7 out of 10. And even then I think I was being overly generous, and the points for most things should be lowered by at least 1. So it obviously means things that are 8-9 out of 10 are better? Sort of true. They're better in a certain context. And things that are 6/10 will easily win battles for you in a certain context. The thing about the LatD list is that nothing stands out as being particularly better than the rest. Not even Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are that great in this list. The reason is that, more than almost anything other list, things in Lost and the Damned need to work together. And it's a big ask to figure out what works together because out list is the biggest in the game.

    I have limited experience with LatD. As you can see I have only played about 20 games at my local gaming centre (far more at home with friends, of course). And even now I have very little idea how to maximise the effectiveness of a LatD list. So I'm going to take a note from GW and approach this from the perspective, not of an incredibly competative list, but as a fluffy list. I'll leave the power testing to you guys.

    Variants:
    There are a huge number of variants to the LatD list, and I'll briefly go over them.

    Traitor Heavy: This list is best thought of as a list for a detatchment of guardsmen that have split from their regiment because they have fallen under the sway of the Chaos Gods. The list is mainly composed of Traitors as troop and FA choices, with Sentinels and Guard Tanks rounding out the list. It plays a lot like a standard Guard list.
    HQ: An Arch-Heretic would probably be the most fluffy option. Imagine a doom-speaker walking around fringe worlds, whispering in the ears of guardsmen at the pub when they're off duty. I probably wouldn't go with a GD or a DP, though a few ACs would probably not be too bad. An Arch-Heretic with a Kai Gun and a Power Weapon is probably your best best.
    Elites: By and large I'd ignore Big Mutants. Flamers would be incredibly useful. They fill in the role of being a Fire Support Squad with Heavy bolters. Obliterators would also be a good choice to make up for the lank of Anti-Tank Support Squads.
    Troops: Nothing but Traitors, and plenty of them. Give them all a Special and a Heavy weapon and watch the pain, as you would against any Guard army. You might also want a squad of inducted CSM for some stable fire-support and a corrupted feel.
    FA: I would probably go with at least two squads of Traitors in a chimera. For the other choice I'd go with either a Hellhound, Sentinels or Rough Riders. Whichever you prefer.
    Heavy: A basilisk and a leman russ would be my first options. I'd even put both in a 1500 list. A Defiler might make a fluffy substitute.

    (LIST COMING)

    Mutant Heavy: This is probably going to be the most common list LatD players use. It is mainly focused around those lovely little fellas: mutants. It works much like an Ork footslogging list, but we also have the benefit of putting in some nasty faster squads to tie up any viscious shooting units that try to deny us our march across the bored. A problem with this list is anti-tank support. Powerfists on your ACs and Bosses will be useful, but problematic. You may want to fill out your list with small squads of traitors. Or you could just go with a GD and smash any tin can in your way.
    HQ: ACs and possibly a GD are the way to go in this list. Put an AC with a Powerfist in each squad of mutants that you have. If you go with a GD, remember not to give your AC a powerfist.
    Elites: Anything CC is fluffy, which means nearly everything can go in. Possessed, Berserkers, Plague Marines and Daemons all work pretty well here. Of course, you'll need a few Big Mutants as well.
    Troops: Mutants! I'd definitely go with Bloated Mutants in this list for extra survivability.
    FA: I personally wouldn't have any. Elites should be your heavy hitters. A squad of Raptors or Furies wouldn't go astray, though. Nor would some Flesh Hounds or Chaos Hounds.
    Heavy: Spawn are the obvious choice. 10 spawn here would be fairly sickening.

    (LIST COMING)

    Khornate: Your forces have been living on a world dominated by the forces of Khorne for the timeless eternity that exists in and near the warp. Your people have been warped and changed and have become the willing servants of the Blood God! This will be a heavily CC list, focusing on a mix of CSM and mutants. Again, this list will be lacking in anti-tank support, more-so than Khorne because you have no Dreadnaught. But I see plenty of Khorne players who get around with the ethos of no Str 4+ gun, and they do ok. This list has the punch and speed of a Khrone list with the hordes of mutants to beef up the numbers.
    HQ: ACs and a Bloodthirster seem almost required here, don't they?
    Elites: Berserkers and Bloodletters. One of each should do.
    Troops: Mutants. Either Khornate or unmarked depending on how fluffy you want to go. Unmarked are probably more useful.
    FA: I'd go with Rough Riders or Raptors and Flesh Hounds. Only the last one is Khornate, but use the benefits of the list! I would love Raptors in my Khorne army, and they hardly fight outside the ethos of the Blood God (as long as you don't hit and run).
    Heavy: Spawn and more Spawn. Tanks are for pansies. Pansies go on the bottom of the Throne of Skulls.

    HQ:
    1x AC: MoK, Daemonic Mutation, Powerfist
    1x AC: MoK, Daemonic Chains
    Total: 119
    1x Bloodthirster
    Total: 205

    Elites:
    8x Berserkers: MoK, 8x Chain Axes, Furious Charge
    AC: Powerfist, Talisman
    Total: 217
    8x Bloodletters
    Total: 208

    Troops:
    30x Mutants: Standard Bearer
    Boss: Powerfist
    Total: 208
    30x Mutants: Standard Bearer
    Boss: Powerfist
    Total: 208

    FA:
    8x Flesh Hounds
    Total: 168

    Heavy:
    4x Spawn
    Total: 80
    4x Spawn
    Total: 80

    Army Total: 1491

    95 Infantry

    HQ: 22%
    Elites: 28%
    Troops: 28%
    FA: 11%
    Heavy: 11%


    Nurglesque: Your regiment was stationed right next to one of the original plague grounds on Cadia. More than almost any other regiment your has been twisted and mutated by Grandfather Nurgle. This list will fight a lot like a Nurgle list, focusing on a lot of tough as nails units that just refuse to take a hint that when you're hit with a bolter shot your should die. I would actually really hate to fight this list. It will be so hard to tear down.
    HQ: ACs and Great Unclean One seem to be the go.
    Elites: Death Guard and Plaguebearers. I'd just go with one Death Guard and no Plaguebearers, personally.
    Troops: My favourite, Bloated Mutants. Go with Plague Zombies if you insist, but Bloated Mutants are just as fluffy, and much better. Nurglings or Gibbering Hordes are also useful.
    FA: Chaos Hounds are about as fluffy as you can get. Some converted Sentinels or a Hellhound would look pretty spiffy, though.
    Heavy: Spawn seem like the best option. A disgustingly mutated traitor tank or defiler will also offer some support.

    HQ:
    1x AC: MoN, Powerfist, Daemonic Mutation
    1x AC: MoN, Daemonic Chains
    Total: 119
    Great Unclean One: Winds of Chaos
    Total: 150

    Elites:
    7x Plague Marines: MoN, 2x Plasma Guns, Furious Charge
    AC: Manreaper
    Rhino: Extra Armour, SL
    Total: 270

    Troops:
    30x Mutants: Bloated, Standard Bearer
    Boss: Powerfist
    Total: 298
    30x Mutants: Bloated, Standard Bearer
    Boss: Powerfist
    Total: 298
    5x Gibbering Hordes
    Total: 50

    FA:
    10x Traitors: Plasma Gun
    Agitator: Plasma Pistol
    Chimera: Extra Armour, Multi-Lasers

    Heavy:
    Basilisk: Indirect Fire
    Total: 125

    Total: 1505

    85 Infantry
    3 Vehicles

    HQ: 18%
    Elites: 18%
    Troops: 43%
    FA: 13%
    Heavy: 8%


    Slaaneshi: You were holding off against a small group of Noise Marines. You had just charged their lines, when you blacked out after succumbing to their beautiful songs. The next thing you know you are standing over the corpses of your commrades, desecrating their corpses into works of grotesque art. You have succumbed to the allure of the Chaos Prince. This army, just like a CSM Slaaneshi list, really will have huge amounts of options. You can go really shooty or really CC. I will focus on a shooty list.
    HQ: I think you could get away with pretty much any HQ here. Everything in a Slaanesh list has the power to corrupt mortals, and lead them to glory. I'd go with an Arch-Heretic with a Kai Gun and power weapon, probably.
    Elites: Noise Marines and Daemonettes seem like the most obvious choices here.
    Troops: Either Slaaneshi or unmarked Mutants, or groups of traitors. Anything here will do.
    FA: Again, pretty much anything would be a good choice here. Though I wouldn't go with Mounted Daemonettes. Sentinels, a Hellhound, or most likely a group of Traitors in a Chimera are your best bet.
    Heavy: I would go with traitor ordinance, painted in dazzling colours and covered in beautiful art.

    HQ:
    Arch Heretic: MoS, Kai Gun, Daemonic Flight
    Total: 100

    Elites:
    6x Noise Marines: MoS, 3x Sonic Blasters, Plasma Gun, Blastmaster
    AC: Sonic Blaster
    Rhino: Extra Armour, SL
    Total: 208

    Troops:
    15x Traitors: Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher
    Agitator: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
    Total: 175
    15x Traitors: Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher
    Agitator: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
    Total: 175
    15x Traitors: Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher
    Agitator: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
    Total: 175
    15x Traitors: Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher
    Agitator: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
    Total: 175

    FA:
    10x Traitors: Flamer
    Agitator: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
    Chimera: Multi-Lasers, Extra Armour
    Total: 205

    Heavy:
    Leman Russ: Heavy Bolters
    Total: 145
    Basilisk: Indirect Fire
    Total: 125

    Army Total: 1487

    77 Infantry
    4 Vehicles

    HQ: 7%
    Elites: 14%
    Troops: 47%
    FA: 14%
    Heavy: 18%

    A CC list:
    HQ: Again, anything here owuld be useful. Though I'd be more likely to take ACs and a Keeper.
    Elites: I'd go with CC Noise Marines and Daemonettes.
    Troops: Slaaneshi or unmarked mutants are the way to go.
    FA: Mounted Daemonettes, Rough Riders and Chaos Hounds all seem like good choices. For conversion fun, make your Chaos Hounds look like Golden Retrievers, or other attractive dogs.
    Heavy: Spawn and Ordinance would again be useful.

    (COMING SOON)

    Tzeentchian: Your latent psychic powers have awoken in you, and it is time to change the fate of the world for the Changer of Ways. This list will focus on Tzeentch's love of magic, but can also overcome the chronic lack of numbers that all Tzeentch players have to face. It also gives them a nice amount of anti-tank power.
    HQ: Arch-Heretic with a disc and psychic powers seems pretty good. One or two ACs would do as well, but don't take too many with too much, or else their price will sky-rocket.
    Elites: Thousand Sons and Flamers seem the best choice. I'd actually take one squad of Thousand Sons and a squad of Flamers. Two will get too expensive.
    Troops: Pretty much anything. Unmarked or Floating Mutants. I'd go with unmarked to build up numbers. Small squads of traitors will also provide much needed anti-tank power.
    FA: Anything will do. Screamers and Traitors in Chimeras seem to be the best option.
    Heavy: A basilisk in a Tzeentch army. How I have waited for this day. Put in some Spawn for some CC punch.

    (LIST COMING)

    A favourite varient of mine is the idea of have an Arch-Heretic, a massively powerful necromancer beyond his years, raising an army of skeletal hordes to fight for the glory of Tzeentch.
    HQ: Arch-Heretic
    Elites: Flamers
    Troops: Mutants
    FA: Screamers
    Heavy: Ordinance

    (LIST COMING)

    Blanced List: Your idea here is to get a fine balance of shooting and CC. There are so many ways of doing this it isn't funny.
    HQ: Anything will do. Probably a CC HQ would be better.
    Elites: Again, anything will do. If you want CC then go with Berserkers and Possessed. If you want ranged support get Noise Marines, Obliterators or Flamers.
    Troops: Mutants and Traitors in about even numbers.
    FA: Again, anything. For CC grab Raptors, Rough Riders and Daemon Packs. For ranged support use Sentinels and Hellhounds. Bikes excel at both, and are probably the best choice.
    Heavy: You probably want to have either Elites or FA focusing on CC so you can reserve these points for traitor tanks.

    (LIST COMING)

    Enemy Specific Thoughts:

    Chaos: The sheer diversity of Chaos armies really precludes any specific tactics. I'll go through a couple of the Legions:
    Alpha Legion: They have Cultists, we have mutants. Mutants are better because they're more adaptable. I don't think Alpha Legion armies should pose any huge problem.
    Night Lords: Bikes and Raptors are going to be hard for any LatD army to deal with. In small groups Bikes can be overwhelmed, but Raptors are going to cause havoc with our dangerously low Ld. Hit and Run also limits our horde ability. Heavy and special weapons are a nice solution to this, but not many LatD armies have ready access to this. Throw your heavy hitters at theirs.
    Iron Warriors: The trick for these guys is actually getting to their heavy weapons in time. Focus everything on their ordinance, because that's going to be a huge risk to you. You need fast units and a couple of heavy weapons.
    Word Bearers: I generally don't think Daemons will be that worrisome for us. Daemons are geared to more expensive units. That being said, I would hate to have a big squad of Flamers breathing down my neck. I would be most worried about those (boring) all-marine armies. That many bolters is going to hurt. But if your mutants have a 4+ save you can probably cope with the shooting. The worry is whether you will have enough troops left to out CC a squad of marines.
    World Eaters: Khorne always have problems with Horde armies. If they don't use 19 point marines you will win as you can swarm them. But it's scary how many basic Berserkers a Khorne player can fit in. Be careful, but numbers will be on your side. You'll outnumber them by at least 2:1. And your T isn't that bad.
    Death Guard: Rolling 6's for wounding will be a huge bugger. That, and Plague Marines are quite cheap. Use your mutants only as a way of stalling the enemy until bigger units can get in.
    Emperor's Children: You're really stuffed if they go all-shooting. You need to have enough fast things to take out their Noise Havocs, who will decimate us.
    Thousand Sons: I'd be most worried about Flamers. Besides Flamers, sheer bulk of numbers will win the day. But did I mention Flamers will chew through us?
    Risk Rating: 7-9

    Daemonhunters: Generally, I think we have a Khorne situation here. ISTs just won't cut the mustard in killing that many mutants. Grey Knights are gods in CC, but there are so few. They're only T4 and 3+ save, which means they'll fall like any marine.
    Risk Rating: 6

    Dark Eldar: As with all Dark Eldar games, they'll absolutely wipe you off the board or you'll smash them into bits. If you get some lucky shots you can deal with it, but I've seen one squad of Wyches do stupidly large amounts of damage.
    Risk Rating: 7

    Eldar: Eldar have a hard time dealing with Horde armies. Chances are they'll wipe out your expensive units in short order, but then only kill 10 mutants a turn. Just watch out for Wraithlords. Powerfists should deal with them
    Risk Rating: 6

    Imperial Guard: I am constantly in awe of the firepower the Guard can lay down. Get rid of their ordinance and you shouldn't be too bad. You have Marine toughness, Tau saves and Ork numbers. Not a good combination for Guard.
    Risk Rating: 7

    Necrons: Just like Word Bearers, they just have a tonne of bolters (equivalents). These guys will really give you a run for your money. But if you get into combat with enough troops you shouldn't be going too badly. But it is a common misconception that Necrons suck in CC. With a high T, 3+ save and WBB they are better than a normal marine army, regardless of I. So watch it. Also, C'tans are almost unbeatable against a standard LatD list. Depending on how nice they are they won't use it.
    Risk Rating: 8

    Orks: They'll outnumner us slightly, but we have a better save. They have one more attack, but we have big nasty troops to induct. I think that that will eventually tip the odds in your favour. Their being Speed Freaks or not doesn't really effect us. If they are Speed Freaks, put your nasty units behind your mutants. They'll attack the mutants, and you can charge them with your superior troops, and they'll be weakened by mutant attacks. Just remember, you won't win CC with your mutants. They need support. Soften them up with Traitor and CSM fire.
    Risk Rating: 6

    Space Marines: See the equivalents in the Chaos section. The only difference SM have is really that they have those CC armies with shooting, like Space Wolves and Blood Angels. That is going to get irritating, particularly with a ratio of 2:1 assault:shooting troops. Just try to speed something to the back while your mutants overwhelm their expensive troops. Your biggest problems will be Deathwing and Ravenwing armies. They really pander exactly to our weaknesses perfectly. Good luck if you face them
    Risk Rating: 6-9

    Tau: Well, you have their save, but better toughness. Engage their suits with something quickly, and wait until the mutants arrive. You should have too many problems. Their main detriment will be their lack of AP4 weapons. They'll have some, but not enough.
    Risk Rating: 6

    Tyranids: Like Orks, they'll outnumber us, but the problem is they are probably better at taking out our more expensive units. Like Orks, use the standard Nid tactics against them. Throw your mutants at them to slow them down and then charge in with your big things. I have always had a problem with Tyranids with my LatD. Their Monstrous Creatures are hard to deal with.
    Risk Rating: 8

    Witch Hunters: Surprisingly effective against LatD. Flamers are actually a bit of a problem for us. Even though we have the luxury of saving, they can take so many. Heavy Bolters are also something to watch out for. If they stay out of CC they'll be causing you havoc. But they do need to get quite close. So charge them when you can to get out of trouble.
    Risk Rating: 6-7
    Current Armies:
    Beasts of Chaos (4000)
    Chaos Marines (3000)

  6. #5
    Spiky MindRaked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tones
    Greater Daemon: It actually takes up two HQ slots, one for the Daemon and one for the AC you will be possessing.
    A greater daemon can possess an agitator or a mutant boss.:yes:
    [Edited - This statement is wrong, see below for more details]

    You gave much more info than I did, "Chapeau" !!
    Last edited by MindRaked; December 1st, 2005 at 20:27.
    MindRaked
    CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7

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    Son of LO MouseC112's Avatar
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    Greater daemon has to possess a aspiring champion, its in the chaos codex unfortunately... would be nice though
    40K-Beakies(9-14-4),Guard(4-7-2),Orks(34-12-11). FANTASY-Dwarves(15-6-7),Beasts (14-14-1), Skaven (17-17-10) DoC (6-1-2). CYGNAR (28-15-1)

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    Librarian from Hell Andusciassus's Avatar
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    Wow guys,
    I thought I should post a reply here, but there's not much left to say...
    apart from the fact that the Hellhound is marvelous even though a bit pricy. It's fantastic and always hit something.
    The LatD is a fantastic army that you can use in conjunction with an existing CSM army or by it self.
    Oh, another thing on the FA-traitors, the Rhino with Dirge Caster is a solid choice to boost the rather low Ld of traitors.
    And if you put a Champion of Tzeentch in a unit of traitor FA and equip him with wind of CHaos and a Thrall or two you'll be able to clean up any trench on the board.

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    Spiky MindRaked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MouseC112
    Greater daemon has to possess a aspiring champion, its in the chaos codex unfortunately... would be nice though

    Sorry, you are right, "Agitator and bosses may not be daemon vessels." (Eye of Terror, p.42), I didn't read the "not" part. My mistake :blush: . I never used Greater Daemons in my LaTD.

    But you still can use AC from allied CSM units as daemonvessel, right ? :huh:
    MindRaked
    CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7

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    Senior Member bonekrusher's Avatar
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    Hellhound

    Move 12� and Flame at 24�. Except if you are playing against swarm, this unit is not cost effective, even for IG players. Well, this is my opinion and I’ll be more than happy to be proven wrong
    Hellhound can not move 12 and fired their flame. Only can move 6 and shoot both their flame and hvy bolter. Hellhound are under fast attack but are not fast attack vehicles but are tanks.
    bonekrusher

  11. #10
    jtm
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    I've always been turned away by the fact that any marked units from csm allies always count as elites.

    I did use the lost and the damned once though, plague zombies are a lot of fun. Even more so when they're a horde and reminds you of a fantasy game with Vampire counts rather than 40k... They're resilient little buggers too.
    I can read now!

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