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I've got problems. I spend way too many points on a squad of chosen terminator champions, and my only original goal for them was tank busting. I always end up spending way too many points per model, in a unit that was never meant for much. I'm gonna need some help for this unit, I'd like to keep them chosen terminator champions for fluff reasons, but you'll see all that later when I post my lists.
These are for a World Eaters army army, and I have problems with tank busting in small games, so I need to keep them cheap, and good at what they do. I play against a lot of Imperial Guard, tank heavy space marine, necrons, tyranids, Tzeench heavy Black Legion, and Tzeentch. Someone is also starting a Grey Kinghts army, but I doubt he will go any higher than 1,000 points with his nids not finished yet either.
This is what I have at the moment, but they got insanely expensive on me, like they always do. I do want them to be able to take out a Land Raider crusader in hopefully 1, and a maximum of 2 turns.
5 chosen terminator champions - 560
5 Marks of Khorne
5 master crafted combi meltas
5 D. mutation
5 D. strength
5 D. Resilience
5 Furious Charge
5 Collar of Khorne
I figure I'm dropping furious charge, mutation, strength, and resilience. I also figured that I should get suggestions from the critics here first.
I'm getting different points to you. The way I work it out a single one of your terminators comes to 141 points, and 5 would be 705.
master crafted combi meltas
Do you want them to charge or shoot. Half of the time they won't be able to shoot, so the combi-meltas seem like a big waste to me.
With that many attacks already with chainfists I don't see the ned for D mutation. 5 attacks per terminator on the charge is enough.
You already have str 8 for normal attacks and 2D6 + 8 on penetration roles. How much strength do you need?
Of all the daemonic abilities this is the one that is best. But even then, let's think about what really hurts terminators: AP 2 weapons. I can't think of that many AP2 weapons below str 8. The only time this would make a difference is for a Str 5 AP2 weapon, so it's not worth it.
You don't need it for the strength. And, with chainfists, you're striking last, so you don't need it for the initiative. So what do you need it for?
Collar of Khorne
There are so few psychic powers that this is useful for. It's only real use, to me, is so a tooled up DP doesn't get splatted by a Zoanthrope or someone else throwing Mind War around.
So with those, knowing you like Chosen Terminator Champions, here is my suggestion:
5x Chosen Terminator Champions: MoK, Chainfists
Unit Total: 440
And even those are extremely expensive. And this is for small games? Terminator Champions like these aren't even worth it in 3000 point games, let alone 1000 point games (which is what I assume you mean by "small"). If you want tank busting go with a Dreadnaught or Predator. If you want CC tank-busting, go with a CCW Dreadnaught and a DP/Thirster.
Beasts of Chaos (4000)
Chaos Marines (3000)
Were there updates on points between codex v2 and 3? My figures come out way different than yours, but I agree with most of what you said, I just needed someone else to justify it for me.
I also should have been more specific in what I consider small games, I'm used to playing with a 5,000 point list, so I consider 2,000 points to be small.
I like terminator champions in my army, but I was iffy on them, so I bought them and said no turning back.
I came up with 295 points for the unit you set up, and the only thing I would add is Collar of Khorne because I play that Tzeench army a lot, and he likes to wipe out my elites choices with Ahriman and a sorceror lieutenant, and he takes the winds of chaos power, which can crush me if I field expensive models like this.
Last edited by Mutuus; January 3rd, 2006 at 02:21.
Try these...they aren't much cheaper but they are WAY more survivable and just as effective.
5 Terminator Champs(Khorne) - Mark, Axe of Khorne, power weapon(comes standard), chaos spawn(for each), Furious Charge. 1x talisman of burning blood.
comes out to 450 exactly. These termies can bloodrage across the board because they have 5 spawn(T5, W2, 3+) to help take ranged hits for them. And then they get to combat with an average of 7 attacks each(3 base, 1 for mark, 1 for 2 weapons, 1 for charge and 1 because if you get 6 attacks you'll statistically get one extra per model for the axes of khorne) on the charge at S5 and I5.
More than enough for any opponent. If you want to cheapen up by about a 100 points you can drop the axes of khorne for just a normal CCW instead. Still get a 6 attack on the charge but don't benefit from all the possible extras.5x Chosen Terminator Champions: MoK, Chainfists
Unit Total: 440
err....those termies are 56 points each...so they're unit cost is 280.....not 440....the unit I made is 450...and its got 10 models in it...plus the termies are tooled up.
Last edited by Sabe; January 3rd, 2006 at 04:12.
Nevermore Chapter: 6200 pts; 97/49/11; Longest Streak: 9 Wins/4 Losses; Nearing Completion
No, no points changes - it just seems that with all those upgrades, it's amazingly easy to miss on your points. It seems that even the people who are correcting other people are wrong themselves. For the record, the group you listed originally is correct in how much the cost. Though, 112 points per model is far, far too expensive. But you know that, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread.Originally Posted by MutuusWell, that's your first problem, to be frank. Why must all of them be Champions? Why can't a few of them (I.E., the majority) be just regular Terminators? Regular Terminators can be armed with Chainfists too, but are quite a bit cheaper in the long run. It also removes temptation.Originally Posted by Mutuus
A simple unit that should suit your needs is a six man group. Two are Champions armed with Chainfists, and the other four are just regular run of the mill Terminators. Two might have Reaper Autocannons if you feel justified spending points on a weapon that might not fire due to Blood Frenzy. The Champions can have a few upgrades, say Collar of Khorne for both. A unit like this runs right around 340 points - not bad at all.
With that unit, you have four strength seven shots to handle light tanks on the way in, and eight strength 8 attacks that roll an extra D6 for penetration. If eight Chainfists attacks can't kill a tank in close combat, even a Landraider, then you have bigger issues that expensive units of Chosen.
Furious charge works rather poorly with powerfist type weapons, so I suggest you drop that. Mutation really gives you very, very little... your terminators go from 5 to 6 attacks each. Thats not that big a difference, but you sure pay for it. Strength is not needed since you use chainfists. Resilience is nice, especially if you often run into a lot of power weapons. If you invest a lot of points in a unit, resilience could be a nice way of making them more survivable. But you gotta realize (as someone mentioned) that a lot of the fire directed at such a group will be very high strength, so t4 or t5 will make little difference.Originally Posted by Mutuus
About your other gear. I hardly think you need 5 chainfists and 5 combimeltas. The five guys you posted would have 35 attacks with their chainfists on the charge! In my opinion one or two chainfists would be more than enough. Same with the combimeltas, one or maybe two. I really like reaper autocannons. They would give your termies some long range punch the times they don't rush forward. Perhaps you could also limit the Collar of Khorne number a bit. Perhaps give a chainfist guy one, so he does not get mindwarred or something similar. Other than that, simple power weapons work wonders in the hands of a Khorne Terminator you know.
I know you wan't to keep them champions for fluff reasons. Thats cool. But remember, they are chosen, these men have ruled planets etc. etc. yada, yada. Even you basic chosen is for fluff reasons a step above normal marines. You might have one or two champions and keep the rest as normal chosen. That will also save you a few points. But if it clashes with your ideas about the unit then go for the champs.
Well, with fists, daemonic strength and furious charge he has some strength 10 terminators. Still, that unit is at least 200 points too expensive...
Why would he want strenth 10 terminators? A strength 8 terminator with a chainfist should be more than enough giving him 5-6 attacks with an average of 15 on his penetration roll.Originally Posted by grimmtu
I forgot about the whole ruled planets, destroyed armies thing, so I can keep pretty much the same fluff as I had before and shave off quite a few points too. This is why I love criticism. So, I think I found my unit, and here it is.
5 chosen terminators - 265
5 Marks of Khorne
1 champion upgrade
1 Talisman of Burning Blood
1 Collar of Khorne
EDIT - As long as I don't get a really bad deep strike, these will make up their points very quickly. One land raider crusader and I've got my points back, and they should all survive that and be able to do some more damage. I think I'm in love with this unit.
Last edited by Mutuus; January 4th, 2006 at 03:02.
now all you need is seom berzerker heads!