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So it's up for debate again this, that's nice.
I've been doing some closer reading to the Codex, you cannot read it closely enough.
It says, as stated in the link Caluin gave in the ~"IC+Chosen gift"-thread under CSM-units headline (or under both the headlines if you feel like it) that "units with the MoT may not have veteran skills...etc, and this is often interpeted as "any unit with the MoT" or even "any unit or IC with the MoT" BUT in the CSM summary it (in my first printing I admit) only says so under the CSM MoT. There is no mentioning of it under Characters and Asp. Champ line...
Any thoughts on that people?
(On my own reply on the, by Caluin, linked thread: This was before I knew about the many misstakes GW-rule-informers makes)
I believe in the codex(even v1 which is what I have) it says that they can't take Vet skills if they have the MoT and then further explains that units with the mark are mindless automatons and champs and chars with it are too focused on sorcery.
Thats what it says in the codex before the summary.
Now in previous exerpiance (notably in some guard codexes concerening the hellhounds AV and the priests BS/WS) we have found discrepencies between what the codex says and what the summary says, GW has answered this conundrum already and stated that when there is a discrepency then you always take the codexes writing over the summary.
So you can pretty safely assume that regardless of how or where people choose to find a problem with the way things are written units or chars with the MoT can never take any vet skills.
Nevermore Chapter: 6200 pts; 97/49/11; Longest Streak: 9 Wins/4 Losses; Nearing Completion
Andusciassus - that is a very interesting find you have there. I don't know why I never bothered to check the Summary page, but it does indeed list two different entries for the Mark of Tzeentch - one for "Characters and Champions" and another for "Chaos Marine Units." Very interesting indeed.So you're saying that I can have Possessed in Terminator armour then?Originally Posted by Sabe
The problem is that the Summary and the Codex Entries don't conflict - in fact, the Summary seems to validate what some people have been saying for awhile now - that the no-veteran skills rule applies only to the Rubrik squads and their Champions.
Hmm, after looking at the summery, it looks very clear about it only affecting regular marine squads. . .
Many carefull reading of the Tzeenitch section of the book, and I conceed that it can be taken either way.
After this my faith waivered. . . then hit the final brick that nobody else has yet mentioned. . .
In the book of Khorn there is a similar restriction for units with the mark of Khorn banning psychic abilities. The ban is located in the paragraphs directly under the heading under the mark of Khorn, and it is absolutly clear.
It got me to thinking that if they intended it to be a global bann they could have, and should have worded it in a similar manner.
So I've now changed sides on the matter. I doubt I'll actually use them to avoid conflict. (that and I don't play thousand sons) I have no idea what GW had actually intended while writing the codex, but the evidence does point to that it's OK to have veteren skills no non-rubic tzeentch.
soo. . .I'm thinking that I was most likely wrong on the matter. And this seems to be a more on topic to say so here.
*sigh* when I asked what the debate was about I begged you all not to restart it.
Now then it does not matter one bit if it fails to mention no skills in the summary. Also the guy who wrote the codex clearly likes Khorne a lot more then Tzeentch so he paid more attention to detail in the book of Khorne.
It specifically restricts characters with MoT from taking veteran skills, if this is not mentioned in the summary that is irrelevant.
I have also heard arguments that the reference is in the CSM section of the Book of Tzeentch and not in the character section. I would like to point out the space between the lines, it is in the MARK OF TZEENTCH section of the book applying to everyone.
Sorry for sounding like a lunatic.
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MoT gives possesed access to the psychic abilities section of the armory...nothing more. Just like, as i'm about to prove, MoT restricts characters from taking from the Vet. Skills section of the armory. Both should be blatantly obvious, but I guess their not.So you're saying that I can have Possessed in Terminator armour then?
Now to prove my point go to the second paragraph under the "Chaos Space Marine Units" section on page 59 of the CSM codex. It very specifically says there that for characters and rubric models you cannot take any vet skills. Read it again...I quote:IC's are characters....I don't see people come to this conclusion that they are exempt. Perhaps its because the paragraph starts off with the word "Units" instead of "Models", if this is the case people are being a little pciky about wordings. Indeed sometimes wordings are very deliberate, but if your going to be picky you should be picky about the fact that its specifically says that CHARCTERS cannot take vet skills.in the case of characters, sorcery demands their full attention...
What they managed to miss or misprint in the summary is irrelevant, like I said they've messed up on summaries before and have rectified it by letting people know that the summary is indeed a summary, and that they should take the codex readings over the summary when there is a discrepancy. And their is a discrepancy, that seems fairly obvious.
Last edited by Sabe; January 7th, 2006 at 06:42.
Nevermore Chapter: 6200 pts; 97/49/11; Longest Streak: 9 Wins/4 Losses; Nearing Completion
Characters include Independant Characters and squad leaders. (aspiring champions)
Sabe is right. Models with the Rubric Sign can't take veteran skills, while characters (IC's and Aspiring Champions) can't because sorcery is hard. (basically)
And what's that about Possessed in Termie armour?! thats just stupid....
Why? Care to back that up with a reason? The Summary page is just a valid place for rules as any other place in the Codex. After all, it is the only place that the Kai Gun is mentioned as being one handed for those with Daemonic Stature.Originally Posted by LordLinkBefore I begin, I would like to state that I will reference the "space between the lines" as a "section break" in my response.Originally Posted by LordLink
I can accept that you interpreted the section break as such. My point is that if you are going to apply this logic to one section of the Book of Tzeentch, you have to apply it to the entire Book of Tzeentch section. You can't just pick and choose which suits you best at any given time - you have to be consistent, even if GW isn't.
Please shift your focus to the right hand column of page 59, under the heading of Chaos Marines. The first paragraph is talking about Chaos Marines units who must use their standard weaponry. No problems so far.
Now we have a section break. According to your logic, this now means that we're applying this new paragraph to anything with the Mark of Tzeentch - not just Chaos Marines units. So the paragraph talks about upgrading units to Terminators - hey, well, since it applies to all units with the Mark of Tzeentch, I can obviously do this for my Possessed units, right? After all, it had a section break after the first paragraph which means that we're done talking about Chaos Marine units, and are now talking about everything as a whole. Atleast, according to your logic.
Are you starting to see why that arguement holds no water?No, it's not that ICs are characters. Everyone understands and accepts that. The word "Unit" and "model" can sometimes be used interchangably - after all, an Independant Character is simply a unit of one.Originally Posted by Sabe
The problem stems from whether that second paragraph applies to all units/models with the Mark of Tzeentch, or if it applies to only Chaos Space Marine units, which for the record, is the standard Troops choice. It's under the heading of "Chaos Space Marine Units" which suggests that those rules apply only to, well, Chaos Space Marine units. After all, I can easily counter that arguement by making the point that the word "Characters" applies only to characters found within units of Chaos Space Marines, as they're the ones with the rule under their heading. I see no such rule under the "Independant Characters, Chosen and Possesed Chaos Space Marines" heading.
Don't you think that if the "No Veteran Skills" rule applied to everyone, it would have been placed under the "The Mark of Tzeentch" heading, right next to the "Fearless" rule? Fearless applies to every unit with the Mark of Tzeentch - why is the "No Veteran Skill" rule placed somewhere differently?Ah, but the discrepancy doesn't lie in the Summary - it lies within the Book of Tzeentch. The summary only adds weight to one side of the arguement.Originally Posted by SabeEstablished. What characters they are referring to is the arguement.Originally Posted by RobizzleExtremely stupid, I agree. But take a moment to read over the old thread and the points I make in this post, and you'll see how it makes sense if you follow the exact same logic that you're applying to the "No Veteran Sills" paragraph.Originally Posted by Robizzle
So I have to ask you - which is more absurd? Letting me have Possessed in Terminator Armour, or letting the occassional player have an infiltrating Tzeentch Lord?It's no big deal. Andusciassus found a new point that was worth pointing out, and alot of our newer members aren't up to speed. Besides, I was itching for a good, civil rules debate (we are keeping this civil, right?) anyways.Originally Posted by LordLink
it sounds acceptable when you say, that the 'no veteran skills' -rule just belongs to chaos space marine units and the thing about the characters just acts as an explanation, why they cant get skills, even if theyre not dust like the rubrics.
but if you think logical, the IC's, possessed, chosen, ect. are busy with sorcery too...
and therefore shouldnt be able to learn veteran skills.
Thought for the day:
A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are for.
I disagree that he likes Khorne more than Tzeentch, while it is very clear that the intention is fro berserkers to have a ccw and bp, it doesn't limit them to that, while I have had people argue with me that it does. It doesn't make sense to most people, but occasionally I play berserkers with bolters in my Khorne army, because bolters are great against everything but SM and CSM. While doing this, my Berserkers are just as good as an undivided marine with bp and ccw in CC, and they get to shoot quite a few down first. Think about it, it works, but only sometimes.Originally Posted by LordLink
Last edited by Caluin; January 7th, 2006 at 19:56. Reason: Fixed quote tags.
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