Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
It occured to me that there are issues in the Chaos codex unresolved through Librarium because of poor (not anyones fault) detailing. A normal thread in the Chaos forum may read, "Plague Sword, worth it?" and those who respond will relate personal uses, best-case scenarios, and general common use. However, it seemed to me there was a lack of conjunction: that is, that elements of the Chaos codex may work best in harmony, and in the struggle to create powerful Army Lists, the subtler, more effective tactica may be left un-explored. More simply, topics in the forum lacked a central idea from which to base comparitive strategies from. So therefore, I've decided to begin a series of topics aimed at the glorification, credibility, and tactical perfection of Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
The goal of the exercise is simple: to present a topic, gather insightful thoughts from the community, and combine them into one agreed, effective, fluid idea. I contemplated writing articles, but it's very one-sided, considering that only one source supplies the information. In these Doctrines, Chaos players can come together to write what I believe will be very powerful community tactica.
First and foremost, I'd like to tackle Chaos elements usually frowned upon by members of this community. I have an unbelievably stern belief in the quality of fairness of Warhammer 40,000 (Shining Spears are good, for example), and it would be momentuous to dig up some tactics previously unheard of, to the large benefit of the Chaos Librarium community. So I've decided to begin with:
Slaaneshi Daemon Weapons
As far as I know, there seems to be a dissident opinion on the Daemon weapons of Slaanesh. I myself find them very alluring. (..and why not, they are Slaanesh )
The Lash of Torment
At 25 points, this Daemon Weapon is concurrent with the popular Dark Blade and Kai Gun. It seems to be frowned on as a waste of points, however, when paired with these two previous, and handsome, options. It is a one-handed power weapon with Daemon Visage, to all extents and purposes.
There is one thing that sets it apart with its rivals, though, and that is that it can be used by an Independant Character who is not in base contact with an enemy model. This is a very important issue, one that with 4th edition rules, makes said Independant Character invulnerable in combat for the entire first round. The rules read that an Independant character must be in base contact to strike or be struck, and that they count as an entirely different unit in combat. So then, an IC not in base contact cannot attack. The Lash of Torment changes this though. It reads that it "may be used at full effect in close combat even if the model wielding it is not in base contact but is within 2" of enemy in close combat with the unit he is with." An Independant Character may join and leave units as he pleases, and when he enters combat, he does not seperate from the unit, only that he counts as a seperate unit in combat for purposes of being attacked. So then, as the IC has joined a unit, but does not actually count as leaving it, he can use the Lash of Torment to full effect even when not in base contact. A charge from a unit of Emperor's Children, joined by a Lord or Lieutenant of Slaanesh, results in guaranteed attacks of the IC with no fear of retaliation. Simply charge the IC into combat after all base contact areas have been filled, and go crazy . After the combat, the enemy is at a -1 penalty to Leadership because of the Lash, but if they don't flee the IC is compelled to find his way into base contact. (This I'm not sure about... anyone?) However, for the first turn, he is literally invulnerable to attack, and with Slaanesh initiative, he is almost always going to go first.
The Needle of Desire
This Daemon Weapon seemed foolish to me at first glance. Sure, it causes many wounds if you succeed, but it doesn't even ignore Armour Saves! On second glance, though, a whole world of possibility unraveled in my mind.
The Needle of Desire has the ability to cause an extra D3 wounds, if it wounds. These extra wounds are impossible to save against. That's nice, but it requires a Leadership test to do this. For some, this might seem like the one wrench in the engine, the reason that the Needle of Desire isn't a viable option. However, the Leadership test isn't a problem; I'll explain later. What really shines about the Needle is that it always wounds on a 2+. This is really just a fantastic thing, to be honest. If a Wraithlord fails 1 of every 3 armour saves, what are the chances of wounding it 3 times, if you have a Chaos Lord armed with the Needle of Desire? Pretty good, especially when paired with Spiky Bits, another combat weapon, and perhaps Combat Drugs (which are always worth the points, any Dark Eldar player will tell you ). Now the Chaos Lord has 5 attacks, with a re-roll. They wound on 2+, and 1 of 3 will wound the Wraithlord. It now seems fairly easy to wound a Wraithlord, a particularly tough opponent. Now, consider this...
What's concurrent between these weapons? They are Daemon Weapons, best used by Lords and Lieutenants... and... they both affect the Leadership value of the enemy! Leadership is key when using these weapons, and now we'll use my theory of Chaos Doctrines to discover a new idea in the use of Slaaneshi weapons. So we know that the weapons rely on Leadership values to be put to full effect. How can we negatively affect the enemies Leadership? The Warp Amp! Within 12", even if out of Line of Sight, the enemy suffers a -1 to not just Leadership tests, but to any test using Leadership value! Within 6", the enemy suffers a -2, and in base contact, if you can pull it off, they suffer a -3. The Leadership of a Wraithlord is 10. With a nearby Warp Amp, it becomes 9, 8, or maybe even 7 (if you can have vehicles in base contact?). You can also add a Blasphemous Rune to your vehicle to add an additional -1 to enemy Leadership.
Suddenly, the Needle of Desire becomes able to wound Wraithlord easily, and has 1/2 chance (on LD 7) to add an additional, unsavable, D3 wounds. You could end up with a slaughtered Wraithlord, who didn't even get to attack back, at the expense of a rarely failed Daemon Mastery check. Very cost effective.
The Lash of Torment also becomes very effective if used in conjunction with a Warp Amp. Given Visage, an IC carrying the Lash, and having a Rhino, perhaps, with a Warp Amp, nearby, causes an enemy who loses combat to test Morale at a -4 Leadership penalty. Even the hardiest LD 10 models will have to test on a LD 6, and more than half the time will fail. For units that "Actually Will Show Some Fear", fleeing and rallying is a serious business. And for a Slaanesh or Undivided player, it's one whole unit you have less to fight.
For all the effects of the above, all you need to pay in points is a 6 man Noise Marine unit, equipped with a Rhino. All in all, it will cost ~200 points to get a very scary Lash of Torment unit. Quite cheap.
Finale! I think this is a good idea, and I'm highly looking forward to your opinions and elaborations, whether you play Slaanesh or not. Together, we can write worldly, community articles.
2H - LEGIO HYDRA
nice thread, you really should do the same thing for eldar as some of the people their are woefully shortsited about some units.
admittedely im a noob so some of my advice is questionable but im still going to talk about the rubric sign.
you get a whole extra wound with the rubric sign and thats easily worth its points meaning your just as resilient as a space marine force double your size. Slow and purposeful can be worked into a major advantage as it allows you to walk straight at the objective with no hindrance to your firepower and even going slower should easily make it there by turn six. With an extra wound you're very unlikely to be shot down on the way and if you deep strike a squad of 5 rubric terminators near big units of your opponents you can tie them down for a long time before they are able to shoot at the thousand sons walking towards the objective.
I would also like to mention lightning claws. Powerfists have the ability to insta kill people but lightning claws can plow through enemy units with the aid of spiky bits and means that on a lord/Lt. with mutation and spiky bits you cann kill all enemies within 2" easily before they even get to strike. Powerfists can't claim that kind of devastation and protection for your character.
Lastly nurgles rot. This should be on every AC and character you have and even though it doesn't stack an infiltrating death guard army can keep easily keep every enemy model under nurgles rot for about 30 points. A bargain.
Always give your characters frag grenades
Check out my Codex: Farmyard Animals here!
If anyone wants any kind of help writing fluff for any kind of GW army just ask.
I have seen the lash used and it can be quite effective on the charge. Mainly if a squad of noise marines + lord takes two turns to defeat a SM CC squad, the lord is powerfist free for the first round. Thus on the attack it can really save the lord some wounds. However in a more even fight, or one that the Noise marines are losingit dosn't seem as useful, as you are spending 25 points on a power weapon that gives you no other advantage if you are in BtB or losing combat. Shooting losses can open up a gap in the noise marine lines allowing charging models into BtB with the lord as well.
While I can see both deamon weapons as useful, they both rely on curcumstance, such as a warp amp dread not being las cannoned, a wraith lord failing saves and LD check, and not just instant killing the lord. A darkblade, or kai gun always do what you want and don't rely on other models being alive or failing a high save and a high LD check.
I think you nicely explained the use of Needle of desire, are you looking for volunteers for other entries? If so please let us know. There are a few units i feel i could clearly writer about, and there are a few posters who would be great at elaborating the uses of Thousand Sons, Chaos Bikes, and daemons.
40K-Beakies(9-14-4),Guard(4-7-2),Orks(34-12-11). FANTASY-Dwarves(15-6-7),Beasts (14-14-1), Skaven (17-17-10) DoC (6-1-2). CYGNAR (28-15-1)
Ok, I heartily disagree with your Needle of Desire arguement.
For one thing you made a very SPECIFIC scenario that it may work well in. I think versatility is key in making your army list. That needle is really almost worthless against basic troops. If you go up against anyone with only one wound like most people have, you are much better served with just a power weapon. So maybe, maybe, if you are fighting a wraithlord it could work, IF you also had other stuff in combat with it to lower Leadership. Because without significantly lowering ld. it's not going to fail it's leadership test. So for it to be effective you have to get into CC in the first place, have your rhino or dreadnaught not get blown up on the way in(and eldar have some pretty fancy dreadnaught/rhino busters), make sure that once in combat the rhino or dreadnaught is close enough to significantly lower ld., get him to fail his armour save in the first place, get him to THEN fail his leadership save that at best, absolute best he still has another 50% chance of making. And then you have to roll good, so he takes multiple additional wounds. That scenario is so far fetched it's unreal. Getting the wraithlord down to 7 leadership is only best case scenario. Wouldn't you be much better served using an infiltrating squad with an AC with a power fist and mutation and strength. Hitting a wraithlord at S9 and ignoring saves is way more likely to kill him, and you have such a more versatile squad to bust dreadnaughts, vehicles, troops, HQ's, anything. Or shoot the guy in the first place with heavy weapons.
If your guy with a lash gets into combat with a squad of power armoured troops, or even 4+'ers you are going to sorely regret that you don't ignore armour saves. I can't think of any situation in which I would take a Needle ever. There are so many better options.
Last edited by northoceanbeach; February 8th, 2006 at 21:25.
Ya I made a lord with the lash of torment, it works nicely. (in particular keeping the guy away from powerfists/force weapons. Don't use him much anymore, but that's cause I don't play the army he leads much any more. I've quite enjoyed it, and it stacks nicely with daemonic visage giving my opponents a -2 ld for their break tests after they loose. I won't call it beter than the dark blade but it is on par with it.
I have often thought of building a statured lord with a needle of desire, never done it yet. Not for effectivness, but for shock value. The idea is that the lord can mow though normal dudes with just his stature and 2 ccw (one being the needle) and should he come against something nasty he can put suprise hurt on things.
However it's true what northoceanbeach said. It really is only effective against a handfull of models C'Tan, greater daemons, wrathlords, avatars. aka big monsterous creatures with high toughnesses and or poor or no standard armor saves. Most effective target being C'Tan 8 tougness monsters with no standard armor save and 4+ invunerable.
That said the dread axe is better for the same croud, and on a statured lord can wound anything reliably. If only you could combine stature with the needle. . . .that would be evil.
ps you out to be careful about posting point costs Twohats. other than that nice post.
Votewar MKV 2nd place. . .
Back from internet limbo, and glad to be here.
It's not an arguement, it's a suggestion for a possible tactic regarding said piece of equipment. Also, versatility is rarely an issue when you know exactly who your are playing and how they like to play.Originally Posted by northoceanbeach
Efficiency doesn't win games,a strong tactical mind with the ability to see the posibilites on the field do. A good commander can get the job done with what's on the table. Based on many of the posts here, sometimes I wonder if folks are playing with any terrain or cover on the table at all.
The goal of the exercise is simple: to present a topic, gather insightful thoughts from the community
I'm not argueing, just posting my insights on Needle of Desire tactics.
Ah gentlemen, I wholeheartedly appreciate your quick and perfect response to this topic. Northoceanbeach presents many excellent points that are in direct disagreement with me; this is exactly what I wanted. Also, there are several people presenting personal uses of the Lash of Torment. Great input. Anyway, back to topic:
The Lash of Torment
While not on par with the Dark Blade in terms of casualty efficiency, the true strength of the Lash is used in Leadership. I started this Doctrine to invent tactics that are beneficial to eachother, as I believe the Chaos list is best used in a variety of combining effects. Therefore, using Daemon Visage or Warp Amps is essential when using the Lash. With negative modifiers, you can achieve a Massacre result more easily, and Slaanesh have the best chance for that because of their higher Initiative.
The Needle of Desire
It's true, this weapon is very specialized, but it seems to be down-played in favor of Power Weapons. I forgot to mention, but I would only use this weapon against enemies with a save of 3+ or worse. Remember that such a model will fail 1 in 3 armour saves, so if you wound it at least 3 times, you have a good chance. It's a very effective character killer: it wounds on 2+ and has the possibility to achieve additional wounds. But, as I said, it has to be used with a Leadership-affecting item to strengthen it's chances of achieving the additional wounds.
There seems to be a disbelief in the survivability of vehicles with Warp Amps. I would not recommend putting one on a Dreadnought, as they are prime targets for anti-armour weapons. However, the Warp Amp can be easily added to a Rhino troop transport, which is much less of a threat to the enemy if it has no troops inside it. I suggest disembarking right away with your EC unit, so that the enemies chance at Entanglement is ruined, and the Rhino becomes unthreatening once again. The EC can deal impressive fire with Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters.
I'm grateful for the arguments going back and forth. Let's try and keep on the topic of Slaanesh Daemon Weapons for now, however. If you have suggestions or topics you'd like to see Doctrinated, please PM me with ideas. I'm more than happy to do as many of these as it takes. As for going into other armies.. I'm not so hot on that idea, because I'm not as learned or experienced in many of the other armies. If you have a specific other-army topic, please PM me and I'll see if I can do it. Thanks!
2H - LEGIO HYDRA
Also, thanks to those who gave me Reputation for this thread. That really made me smile.
2H - LEGIO HYDRA