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1) I want an actual codex (I rather far off propsition at best, but one that the rest of my wishes to rely on to actually come about.) or at very least an update in the new chaos codex that's probaby a ways out itself.
2) With regards to Mutants:
un"marked*" are absolutly fine. (*I use marked in quotes cause it doesn't actually count as a mark, more like potential upgrades that are fluffy for this mark.)
khorn "marked" should be dropped to 1 point per model for the upgrade, or add bloodrage movement into the mix at the current price. (maby 1 higher)
nurgle "marked" are fine too but. . .
-- plague zombie: are a sublcass of nurgle marked that can also be taken: they currently are not worth the points: I think adding nurgles rot to them and making them immune would fix the problem with them, and make them work fluffier at the same time. No point adjustment needed.
Slaneesh "marked": worthless, it's like daemonic visage for the same price per mutant as a single aspiring champion can take by himself for the exact same effect. It's expensive too relative to the cost of a base mutant: I suggest warp scream for these guys, like the normal mark of slaanish or a +1 inititive boost. Cost probably the same as they pay now for thier worthless upgrade.
Tzeenith "marked": to be honest I've never tried it to know for certain, but it looks a little to pricey, perhaps a point or two down then it would be good.
Also I think it would be nice if they raised the wargear limit on bosses just a little, say to 25-30 pts, if for no other reason than to make it possable to individualize them a bit more than: boss with powerfist. that's it, without a doubt the only useful setup in the current limit. I would like to see some more flexability: perhaps the ability to take wargear from their "marked" gift list, be able to buy gifts that they don't already have (if they have points) as for toughness they're fine: they're a bargan for 4 str 6 powerfist attacks (no firearms)
3) With regards to big mutants: These guys need some love in a big way, they pale in comparison to their smaller brothers. Probably start by dropping the base price to 20, letting the boss take wargear like the little mutants, and giving them access to various mark like abilities would do the trick. So in short drop the base price a little and treat them like the smaller mutants (of course they're going to have to pay more for the upgrades. . .)
4) Regarding Obliterators: these should probably be on the main list, probably as a heavy support rather than elites. Keeping of course the 0-1 limit that they have in the chaos codex.
5) Force orginization chart: it would be nice if when allying with a cult army, that their basic troop stays a troop, rather than being moved to elites. This would let LatD/ Cult allied armies be more practical to build.
That's it off the top of my head. . .may add more later. What do you all think?
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Unlikely to ever happen. Too similar to Chaos, I think. I'd settle for a reprint of the Eye of Terror in some fashion, however.Originally Posted by JORMAGI
Actually, now that I think of it, it could be treated like a sub-Codex, like Blood Angels and Black Templars. That'd work well enough.Maybe. I'm not so sure about that. Haven't tested "Khorne" marked mutants.Originally Posted by JORMAGINurgle's Rot would be breaking balance. Plague Zombies already have no points increase - giving them a powerful ability on top of that is too much. A slight increase would be appropriate - even one point, since they're easily avoided.Originally Posted by JORMAGI
However, I could see Nurgle's Rot in close combat only with no points increase. That'd help make up for their loss of a Boss, and doesn't make them too over powering since they can't simply hit all the units that they're near.Agreed. No point to take Slaanesh marked as is.Originally Posted by JORMAGINot unless there was a rule stating that Aspiring Champions couldn't join them. Having two hidden powerfists is already powerful as is, even if one can't really upgrade. And there aren't any useful upgrades beyond 15 points anyways - it'd always be Meltabombs at 20 points, or Spiky Bits at 25.Originally Posted by JORMAGIYes. They're worthless as they are. Low toughness + crap armour save = doesn't matter how many wounds you have. See Ogryns in Imperial Guard.Originally Posted by JORMAGINo, I don't agree. Oblits are insanely powerful if used correctly, and sacrifices need to be made in order to take them in a LaTD list. Imagine if I could take Infiltrating + Furious Charge Raptors and Oblits... just, no.Originally Posted by JORMAGII don't think so - that defeats the purpose of the "Any Marked to Elites" rule. Oblits plus Berzerkers plus huge Mutant squads to shield them, plus a few Basalisks...Originally Posted by JORMAGI
A few of my own -
1) Aspiring Champions -
2) Make Traitors more worthwhile to take. As far as I've ever seen, they're only taken so that you can take Tanks in Heavy Support.
- Make the Mark of Khorne a +1 attack, not alter their base profile.
- Make Mark of Slaanesh Warp Scream, like it's supposed to be. I don't want +1 init, I want Warp Scream.
- Mark of Nurgle is worthless with Majority toughness rules.
- MoCU is way too expensive.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
I would love to see a LATD codex too, and maybe slopping in a lot more choices. To me, LATD would also be better by containing "traitors" type units from the other races, because as far as I know Chaos affects a lot more then the imperium. Orks, Eldar, and maybe even Tau traitor type units would be cool to see. (I could totally see the Orks following Nurgle too... because he's green) And maybe adjust the traitor recon and traitor tank selections accordingly. Maybe as a Doctrines type thing, to use traitors of any race and their accompanying armor, you have to choose. Like, if you want to have a LATD list with russes and human traitors, you'd have to choose that doctrine, there would be another one for ork traitors and tanks, and still another for eldar and whatever other stuff you wanted to include.
LATD encompasses a LOT of stuff, so a doctrine or chapter traits system is pretty much obligatory for doing a LATD codex.
I've never used mutants so I'm probably not qualified to comment on them, or the big mutants, but your ideas seem good.
I'm not sure about oblits in the main list, I always thought possessed marines in the main list was kinda flaky as is, although the more I think about it, possessed marines are probably supposed to stand for possessed people (not necessarily marines though). Oblits are really powerful, so if they're added to anything it should be cautiously, or make it in such a way that it's difficult to do.
I would like to see the LATD list be able to gel quite easily with the CSM one as well. Perhaps make it so that if the LATD army has an allied CSM general, the general's mark works the same way that it does in the CSM (so, a Khorne marked Daemon Prince allied to a LATD can take units with the Mark of Khorne in their normal slots instead of elites) Also, the option of cult armies integrating into a csm list could work wondefully.
I would like to see the LATD spin off into their own unique list though, right now they're just an uncomfortable mix of Imperial Guard and Chaos.
EDIT: Cal beat me to the punch, but I've got some things to add...While I think this would be acceptable, I do believe that with some sufficient thought, a Lost and the Damend codex could be it's own book with ease. LATD covers all of the chaos that isn't the marines, because after all the marines are probably actually somewhat rare... just like loyalist marines in the imperium. Fluffwise aren't most of the forces of chaos cultists and the like anyway? Having a marine free chaos force makes sense to me.Unlikely to ever happen. Too similar to Chaos, I think. I'd settle for a reprint of the Eye of Terror in some fashion, however.
Actually, now that I think of it, it could be treated like a sub-Codex, like Blood Angels and Black Templars. That'd work well enough.If the Aspiring Champs counted as independent characters, that may take some steps towards balancing this, because then it would be no different then an HQ joining a unit normally.Not unless there was a rule stating that Aspiring Champions couldn't join them. Having two hidden powerfists is already powerful as is, even if one can't really upgrade. And there aren't any useful upgrades beyond 15 points anyways - it'd always be Meltabombs at 20 points, or Spiky Bits at 25.I actually like traitors, the infiltrate thing is handy, but I think I'm in the minority there. Maybe if the LATD codex had doctrine type things, you could customize them more fully so they suit the army style and therefore make them worthwhile.2) Make Traitors more worthwhile to take. As far as I've ever seen, they're only taken so that you can take Tanks in Heavy Support.
Last edited by Ubernyaw; April 21st, 2006 at 03:59.
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I'd settle for the only in CC, or just immunity and can still be led by a Nurgle AC, but I really don't think it's umbalancing. The slow and purposfull (wich is all badness in a unit with no guns to take advantage of), and the lack of any other upgrades(particularly the boss & no AC leader) is a pretty harsh exchange for being fearless. Besides a little rot goes a long ways, but a lot of rot doesn't really go much further.Originally Posted by Caluinumm you can take infiltrating + furious charge raptors and oblits as it sits: the raptors are fast atack and the oblits are elite. no conflict(provided you don't mark the raptors). There is a sacrifice: first you still can't take any more than there are currently available. Second you have to give up a potential tank. Wich has the end effect of limiting the total heavy firepower a LatD list can muster. I actually see the move to Heavy support as a sacrifice in order to get it on the list, but I can see now how an assault oriented player would see that as a boon rather than a sacrifice.Originally Posted by Caluingood point, I've changed my mind. . . though it would be fluffy. . . it could be taken advantage of in a bad way.Originally Posted by CaluinKhorne: yup good callOriginally Posted by Caluin
Slaanesh: Warp Scream bad, very bad! a whole unit with warp scream is fine, or an independant character, but just according to my reading of the rules just 1 model with warp scream in a squad is broken! you attack my mutants with marines, I have an AC with warp scream, ahhh your whole marine squad goes at I3 hey that's when the mutants go! Warp scream = +1 inititive for every member of the squad. GW knew exactly what they where doing when they changed it to +1 inititive.
Nurgle: ya it doesn't really do anything besides open up the character to nurgle equiptment.
MoCU: hmm it depends on what squad you put it on. It comes to less than 1 pt per model in a big mutant squad it's a good buy, but for a small squad it's way over priced. Perhaps make it cost the same as in the Chaos codex, but if the AC takes it then the squad also must take it for the nomal price found in the Chaos codex. That way it's not waisted on a small squad.
Traitors: I've got mixed feelings about this one. They are way worth their points as small fire support squads with their infiltration, and ability to take a heavy weapon in a very small squad.
On the other hand they're not worth taking as a full sized squad. My question is what exactly can you do to them to make them more uesfull in bigger squads without ruining their small infiltrator utility?
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Oops! Meant to include the Mark in that statement. (Alpha Legion is usually the ones I ally with, so the Furious Charge + Infiltrate can be taken with MoCU)Originally Posted by JORMAGI
But I see your point with the Oblits. I could see them being Heavy Support, but with a caveat that you have to have a unit or two of Marines as well.Started thinking about that after I posted it, and I agree. I can see how that'd be unbalancing. The only way around it would be to declare who's attacking the Champion, but since they're not ICs you can't do that. Fair enough, point removed.Originally Posted by JORMAGIThe reason I consider it mostly worthless is because you have leadership ten already. That's extremely high.Originally Posted by JORMAGI
I've had 14 mutants inlcuding boss and asp champ turn and run away one turn away from tau before due to a bad die roll. Below half str with a starting squad size of 31 is still a VERY deadly squad, and a single poor die roll can cost you the game some times. Thus I don't think that Undivided is a bad choice, although it is fairly costly.
I want two things, and I want them bad.
The first is Traitor Heavy Weapon squads, since that's how we use them (ever seen 5 traitors and a lascan?) we might as well be given a proper option and get to pay for it.
The second is I want to be able to have more then one unit of marked allies. OK, two if one counts the HQ, but really.
This second option could very well have some limitations to it like the pure list-thing. All mutants must be gifted with "flying" or whatever. But I would really like to have more then one Thousand Sons squad and a Lt.
It's not that two squads would upset the balance of the army, not compared to what one sacrifice, no bikers, raptors or oblits.
Oh, and a third thing, I would like our Stormtroopers (Blood Pact) to be a little less expensive then the basic CSM when they wear 4+ armour...
1- Traitors should count as 1/2 choice of troop and the max number of models should be 20.
2- Big mutants should be able to have wings at 20 points each (Tzeentch).
3- LATD should have it's own vehicle upgrade list taking some stuff from chaos at higher price and some stuff from imperial at regular price and have it's own range of upgrade like "traitors riding on top of chimeras (can transport +8 models, open top) ^_^ " or "Dead Imperial commander crucified on front armour (-2 LD on tank shock)" or "Rigged vehicle (can be sacrificed to blow every models within 6" or 12" for a hellhound)".
4- Traitors with an AC that has infiltration should be able to infiltrate.WE CAN HAVE STORMTROOPERS ?????? WHERE IS IT WRITTEN ?Originally Posted by Andusciassus
Last edited by Caluin; April 21st, 2006 at 20:47.
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
I'm just going to name my biggest wishes.
Stats of a chaos lieutenant, gear of a chaos lieutenant, can look like pretty much anything you want.
Fine as far as it goes, but I'd like the option a few modest pieces of wargear or pyschic powers that only a LatD Arch Heretic, and maybe the LatD ACs could take.
Just something to make him unique.
After all you can take an allied CSM Lord or DP and all things being equal, why aren't they in charge?
If the Arch Heretic is theoretically the boss, they they should have the option for a few unique cookies.
Just like Ogres, these guys need to be either cheaper or have toughness 5. Simple.
Oh, and for the love of pete, lower the cost of the big mutant boss. The upgrade alone costs more than another big mutant to give you a few better stats and one higher leadership without the ability to take wargear.
I can see why they didn't allow the gear as a tooled up Big Mutant boss could be quite a tank if kitted out. So lower the price of the upgrade.
Since the only way I seem to be able to keep my muties alive whilst crossing the field without using the Tzeentch upgrade is to advance through cover, would it be too much of a stretch for mutants have the option to buy the move through rough terrain skill?
You could throw it off as fluff by saying that they push swiftly through dense terrain due to their disdain for their corrupted bodies. Of course when you do that it brings up the potential for more models getting killed due to such carelessness. Maybe if they got the skill for free, but took a casaulty on a roll of a one.
Not that I really want to pay 1 pt a model for it. That can add up on a 30 man squad, so maybe just a set cost to encourage people to field big squads which are fluffier anyways.
Considering how many people take these jokers as the minimum squad size due to the fact that they are overpriced in points, lower the cost of the traitors by 1 point.
They'll still be both more expensive than and have less LD than guard, but at least at one point less a model I might consider fielding a large squad.
Last edited by Grey; April 21st, 2006 at 21:51.
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