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Hmm... Berzerkers are supposed to be the close combat specialists, but when i look at the stats i can't help but think that plague marines are infinitely superior.
They get bolter fire, and extra attacks in CC (although no charge bonus) and have better toughness. They are also fearless and give access to the mighty nurglings!
Also, they won't fall prey to the Rhino-in-front-of-my-face-must-follow-woof-woof trick.
I refuse to part with my hard earned cash until i know what ALL the pros and cons of units are, what do people think of this?
Everything has it's place. Plague Marines are nice, I'll grant you - but can't hold a candle to Berzerkers in close combat. The only things that come close on a point per point basis are Genestealers.
Plage Marines are used when you need to tie something for long periods of time. Yes, it's true that they're harder to kill, but tend not to have the amount of power that Berzerkers can dish out. Typically they rely upon their Champion to do most of the dirty work. Also, when using True Grit, you're often being charged by the enemy, so the Toughness goes to help mitigate their losses through the extra hits they've been dealt.
Berzerkers on the other hand will practically decimate any opponent they face, including Plague Marines. Toughness 5 means squat when you only have a 4+ armour save against 4 attacks per model coming at you, not including the Champion, which usually levels between six to eight attacks a round. Gets even uglier should they have chosen to use Furious Charge, which many Khornate players do.
Nurglings are cute, but really not that effective. There are a plethora (Jefe, would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?) of strength 6+ weapons avaliable, all which make swarms dead in a heartbeat. Add in the fact that Nurglings are very slow, and you'll see why most people avoid them.
As for the Rhino-woof-woof tactic, that's not an issue unless you've really unbalanced your list. A smart player takes more than just Berzerkers in his army, as it takes a diverse army to achieve a goal. Predators come instantly to mind. Also, most Berzerker units have a way of dealing with said Rhino should they happen to have chased it.
Now, with all that being said - both units have their places. However, you can't really compare Plague Marines to Berzerkers. They're two different animals with different roles in an army.
Cheers for clearing that up.
maybe it's the lack of control about the World Eaters that I don't like about them. But that's just my style of play. I'll test some out in a battle and see if I can fit them into my grand scheme.
Out of interest, Caluin, what's your personal take on Thousand Sons and Noise Marines?
Last edited by Karmoon; May 27th, 2006 at 19:52.
That's actually pretty common. Many people dislike Khornate units simply because they feel that they have no control or no real tactics other than "Charge!" It can be a turn off. You might consider taking either Winged Possessed or Bikers, since they don't suffer the Blood Frenzy. Although, they're admittedly much more expensive to use.Originally Posted by KarmoonThousand Sons are a very tough army to play properly and require quite a bit of skill, otherwise you find yourself losing quite a bit. Rubrics themselves are okay, especially the Terminators, it's just the lack of differing units that makes 1K Sons armies hard to use.Originally Posted by Karmoon
Noise Marines are pretty good as well. You'd be surprised at that init bonus will do for you, and how well it'll protect your marines. Many people it's preferable to have in Close Combat even over the +1 toughness of Plague Marines. My biggest issue with Noise Marines is the sacred number - six is simply too small to amount to a decent Close Combat unit, and Noise Marines armed with Sonic Weaponry tend to be far too expensive.
Right right.. hmm, from what you've described, bikers with a Mark of Slaanesh sound more and more tempting and interesting to use.
I don't intend to have a Slaaneshi HQ, so the favoured number isn't really an object for me. Plus bikes are always amusing for the occasional demon bomb.
Anyway, this thread is going off at a tangent. Thanks again for your help, I would add to your reputation again, but I can't do it twice in a row it seems.
But I'll get you next time!
You know I hear that a lot...but I can't see why people won't just take untis of 12 then. Slaanesh is the only power with a number low enough taht you can actually go up to the next multiple without making the squad too large. I feel that combat units of 12 Slaanesh marines are actually quite attractive.My biggest issue with Noise Marines is the sacred number - six is simply too small to amount to a decent Close Combat unit, and Noise Marines armed with Sonic Weaponry tend to be far too expensive.
Nevermore Chapter: 6200 pts; 97/49/11; Longest Streak: 9 Wins/4 Losses; Nearing Completion
Fantastic, there it is in brackets "(or exact multiples of it)"
Sabe, I like your style.
Suddenly doing a Emperor's Children army seems more and more tempting and viable.
They'd need infiltrate of course, for that level of viability.
I don't see why not, but is Slaanesh enemy minus 1 Initiative accumulative with Furious Charge? I understand that you only have to be 1 above to strike first, but it would be good to get the edge on other specialist CC units.
Also, I see talk and potential of Khornate Possessed, but what about Slaanesh Possessed?
Impart your wisdom please!
Yep.I don't see why not, but is Slaanesh enemy minus 1 Initiative accumulative with Furious Charge?
Bear in mind you won't be able to take both Infiltrate and Furious Charge, because marked squads can only have a single veteran ability.
oops, yeah sorry about that.
Mark = 1 veteran skill only.
infiltrate or furious charge.... with 12, it's a bit of a transport issue...
I can't say I've ever had a problem with 6 marines in close combat.. They won't be slaughtering dedicated close combat troops like howling banshees anytime soon, but I can't see you ever wanting to send basic marines up against such troops in cc anyway.
Maybe it's just that I usually field a keeper of secrets, so the normal scenario is that, by the time I hit CC one of the aspiring champions has become big and clawy, and his squad tends to spend the battle mopping up after him.
Noise marines are fearsome in close combat.. Warp scream is often underestimated, but is a genuinely superb ability for any cc unit. CC noise marines would be a good compromise for those who don't like the monodirectional strategy you have to employ with word bearers, and are prepared to saccrifice a little of the raw power to get more flexibility and some nice pre-assault shooting in the form of the blastmaster (which can be shot from a moving rhino on assault mode.)
Alternately, I'd suggest using undivided cc troops with furious charge. They won't quite pack the punch of berskerers, but they'll equal noise marines on the charge for fewer points.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; May 28th, 2006 at 12:31.