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I was wondering if anyone truely takes advantage of this part of chaos. You can load up your units with up to three vet skills, and make them very versatile. Now this is only if you don't use any marks at all, a basic chaos list. But still say counter attack, infiltrate and maybe tank hunters or night vision for a shooty squad. Infiltrate, furious charge and maybe tank hunters if you're using meltas.
I was thinking of trying this for my Alpha Legion list. Which of course has the advantage of Infiltrate for real cheap, and can still have 3 more vet skills. Sure MoCU is real cheap and gives you the reroll. But if you are not planning on using deamons, that leadership 9 is nothing to shake a stick at. I'm thinking have 2-3 vet skills on each unit makes the army a bit more veratile in a tournament environment.
I always take Marks on my squad. Usually Mark of Nurgle or Mark of Khorne (Seeing as I have a World Eaters and Death Guard army), so only get access to 1 gift.
However, if I had the option, I would only ever take 1 skill, max. Only on rare occasions would I take 2, and if I did they would be 2 cheap ones (counter-assault, move through cover)
I find that if you load a unit out with infiltrate, tank hunter and counter-assault, it almost triples the cost of your basic marine, and he is just as easy to kill.
Quite frankly it's not worth it.
Stick with one - maybe 2 if it's a unit of Chosen or Havocs. Only then would it *really* be useful, but I'm still not convinced.
I'm going to have to agree with Robizzle in principal, but my specific rules are slightly different than he stated.
Veteren Skills raise the cost of the unit by a tangable amount, in return you get some sort of advantage. The question is not the number, but the wether you're getting your points worth out of the boost.
For example Tank Hunters for a 10 man squad has the same price as 2 chaos space marines with the mark of chaos undivided. If you're using that to say, boost a single missile launcher to str 9 you're wasting your points. On the other hand if you're doing it for a havoc squad filled with them you're probably getting your points worth out of the skill.
Furious charge on a shooty squad with bolters is a waste, but on an assault squad it can be very powerful. Just don't forget it cuts into your numbers.
Infiltrate is almost always worth the points, it gets your guys into position faster, and lets you place your models after seeing your opponents setup. It also synergizes well with other skills. For Alpha Legion with it's reduced cost this is particularly true. This skill synergizes well with most other veteren skills, but I also suggest that it's the only one that does.
Tank hunters: I touched on this lightly already, but it's one of the expensive veteren skills: unless you're boosting a signifigant number of heavy weapons, you're wasting your points. Remember every model in the squad pays, but (for it's primarly purpose) only models with heavy weapons benifit. In a squad tooled for CC, with melta guns this veteren skill amounts to a lot of wasted points that serves no other purpose other than lowering your model count.
Furious Charge: It's great with CC squads, but again is one of the expensive veteren skills: I can't justifly mixing it with anything besides infiltrate.
Counter attack: To me this skill is useful only for squads that have a CC bite, but who's combat emphasis is shooting. Death Guard come to mind as an obvious example. It doesn't mix with furious charge well because the assumption with this skill is that you're the one that's going to be charged. The usefullness of tank hunters in combination is up questionable, but not out of the question. (depending on the type of shooty they are.)
Night vision: is a nice boon to get for free from night lords, but I would suggest that it's not usefull enough to be worth the points. unless you Know that it's going to come up.
Siege specialists: is a nice boon for iron warrrior for free, but again not worth taking unless you know that you're going to be playing with fortifications.
Move through Cover: it could come in handy, but I personally wouldn't pay points for it.
Anyway these are just my thoughts, but personally I'd be careful around veteren skills, to make sure you're gettin your points worth out of them.
Also LD 9 flat isn't really all that great. There are a lot of penalties that can and will get thrown on you in a tournement situation: Outnumbering & below half Strenght can drop your leadership by as much as 4 even with a leadership of 10 you're still more likely to run than stay under those circumstances. MoCU can save you from that, and also the randomly failed break tests. It's hard to roll 11+ two times in a row. It's not all that hard to do it once.
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i use vetren skills all the time for my night lords and of course i take Infultraitors for almost everyone i can, and like allready stated dont waist points on things not needed like night vision unless you know fersure that its going to happen.
The points for vet skills is pretty good but for a whole squad you could get 5 more troops in a 15 man squad (just esamating) Just pick what you think you will use, like a havok squad oviously should take tank busters or even infoltrate or move through cover cause you want them havoks to stay down in cover ya know. But no more then 3 unless you realy need to cause like they said to exspensive
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Hmmm.. not really. If you marine has any Mark, then he can only have 1 veteran skill. Otherwise, he can technically have them all.You can load up your units with up to three vet skills, and make them very versatile.
But as everyone else has clearly said, "point sink"
Even the designers themselves have said, (I'm not 100% sure where) that they were designed to take 1, or 2 max, but they outprice themselves the more you put on.
non of the vet skills are miracle powers really, they may give you the edge if used properly though.
skills like infiltrate and tankhunters are the easiest to use though, and because they are easier to use, you'd be fool not to apply them to the right squads.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
Some good points to consider. I have to agree they are not all usefull unless you know you're going to use. Such as night fight, siege specialist(think it's a waiste period).
Since I'm playing AL, I get the infiltrate real cheap, 1 point for troosp, I think 3 for characters. So everything is getting that no matter. I have played a few games with this army so far, and I like it.
So far, I'm definately doing the following. Furious charge on assault squads, counter attack on the shooty(bolter) squads, and tank hunters on the havocs.
PS: speaking of tank hunters, I read through the SM Veteran squad tactica link on front page. It has tactics of giving tank hunters to them with all using bolters so you get S5 shots from bolters. I do believe, as someone said above, only heavy and special weapons are affected by tank hunters.
No, anyone with the skill is effected by it regardless of the weapon they use. (So against armour those vets get to combine tank hunter with their bolters.Originally Posted by Gman
Use at best two skills for the marines in my LatD army, since I dont field any marks...
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Gman, remember that Alpha legion's infiltrate skill does NOT count against the Vet skill limit for them. Meaning a marked Alpha legion marine can have 2 vet skills as long as one is infiltrate.
Its also(for me) not entirely a matter of being a point sink, but rather more that MoCu is such a useful mark that for one point a model, its crazy not to take it. I have used unmarked squads in my Alpha, but the first time you have a game with bad rolling and you lose 2 full squads because he killed one legionaire and ran your whole squad down, I think you will agree with me. Marines are just too expensive to allow more than a slim chance of letting them break and run.
I commonly use 2 mark squads for specialist roles: My raptors for example have Infiltrate and furious charge, half of my CSM squads have the same because I wanted to equip them as assault and counter strike support specialists. My havocs have Tank hunters and infiltrate. You really only need two skills to really efficiently specialize a squad.
Any more skills and you run the risk of spending too many points on guys that will die, and because they are so versatile, in order to make them USEFUL in versatility you need to equip them accordingly too, which costs even more points. You get my idea.
I feel that power armored armies work best as a conglomeration of specialists.
Have a role for each squad in mind during design and equip them so they can efficiently accomplish their goals.
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Not us Chaos.I do believe, as someone said above, only heavy and special weapons are affected by tank hunters.
Those crappy Loyalist Marines only get it for heavy weapons, but we get it for anything.
Actually, Tank hunters only applies to heavy weapons, special weapons, meltabombs and krak grenades. pg18 Chaos space marine codex 3rd printing.Originally Posted by darkreever
I thought of this(str5 vs vehicles) before but when I looked it up, I was dissapointed.
So,I checked the CSM FAQ v4.01 referres to universal special rules in the 40K main rules book
pg 76 of the main rules book. And all tank hunters now apply the bonus to all weapons they use(I believe even loyalists,since the main rules book has precidence). Awesome!
Last edited by theyak; June 8th, 2006 at 18:58.
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