Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
In a word I don't use daemons. The simple reason is that you have no control over when they come and very little control over where they arrive.
This can be remedied IF you intend to pay for the special mark which entails you must take Chosen, which is generally never worth it.
You can have the perfect strategy to use your 'letter's hell blades to mow some Marines down, but with a bad scatter and a turn, the marine player can laugh his socks off as he plasma cannons the whole pack as they're trying to cross the road.
Perhaps I'm playing the wrong army but, I don't like unreliability.
But, I notice in the FAQs that is states that If there are no icons on the field then no daemons can be summoned for said turn. So could you hold icons in vehicles until the turn before you need them?
Even then, the chances are, the vehicle will turn into a steel coffin for the icons, meaning potentially good bye daemons. Also, that requires a fair amount of forward planning.
I want to use daemons, I can see the tactical advantage of Blood letters, Furies, Flamers etc but the lack control is a real turn off.
Basically, I want to know how people go about controlling and dealing with this problem? I have read loadsa tacita here and everywhere and I haven't really come across an answer that satisfies me.
Well as somebody who uses them just about every battle, I feel I can speak with a bit of athority here.
Daemons are not reliable, you usually can't know well how they're going to come in. In other words your fears are compleatly justified. . .
BUT. . .
They are also very powerful, and there are things you can do to help make them more consistant.
First look at what they do.
Bloodletters are basicly str 5 marines with an invunerable save and power weapons: not cheap, but a bargan for what they have.
Daemonettes: High inititive, rending attacks for a modest price. . .far cheaper than their closes comparison Genestealers. . .(admitadly they're not as good, but they're not that far behind in power)
Flamers: 2 wound models armed with assault heavy bolters, very nice.
I could go on but I think my point is made. If you compare the fact that what you get is worth more than what you pay for, the unreliabilty becomes the balancing factor, it's what makes them not broken.
OK so what can you do to keep them at optimal reliability?
It is all about proper use of summoning points: Number, Range, and Squad Position.
Number: the more summoning points you have the more options you have when they come in, and the harder it is to prevent.
Range: There is something I refer to being the sweet spot for daemon summoning. It differes from daemon to daemon, but the principal is simple. When you roll for your daemon to come in, you want it to be able to engage a target that turn. In this way the fact that they missed one or more turns off the battlefield becomes an advantage to you, rather than a disadvantage. Also important as many daemons are not very durable to enemy fire.
Bloodletters, Daemonettes & Plague Bearers: This is having the enemy squad about 13" away from the icon.
Flamers: This is 24" From the icon.
Furies, Screamers, Daemonettes on steeds of Slaanesh, Fleshhounds: 19"
The signifigance of these numbers is that is where the icon needs to be for an easy summon, with enough range to charge something (or in the case of Flamers shoot something) with all but the worst of scatters.
In an ideal situation you want your icons at that by the end of your first turn.
So how do you get them into that position. First off there is squad position. Placing your icon as close to the enemy as possable is very important. You also want to give plently of space for the template to come down. The last thing you want is to croud you daemons. Corners of large squads are good, or I found front and center of smaller ones to also be a good place as scatters will usually take the template away from anything in the squad in that case.
Don't forget that daemons usually have further reach than the summoning squad. Daemonettes have the same charge range as their summoning squad, but with no scatter can charge something as far away as 17" (thoug ideal charges would be closer) due to the fact that daemons are summoned onto a 5" diameter template that need but touch the icon bearer.
This means that infiltrating troops with an appropriate icon can get to the sweet spot for the shortest ranged daemons if they are willing to move: Infiltrate 19", first turn advance to 13" Second turn Summon ~8" away and charge.
Longer ranged Daemons don't need their summoners to advance after infiltrating, or could be summoned idealy off of non-infiltrating units after a single advance.
One last thougth: If you're playing a cult army you have the option to summon daemon squads faster if you have them in the chosen number. I suggest that you don't want your daemons summoned untill you get into the sweatspot. If your squads can get there on the first turn I suggest you use the sacred number, and if they cannot, then avoid using the sacred number as it will only get you daemons killed before their time.
Votewar MKV 2nd place. . .
Back from internet limbo, and glad to be here.
I would not play a game without at least one squad of daemonettes. Mine have taken down tooled hive tyrants, space marine bikes, terminators, leman russ battle tanks. They are cheap, effective and hated by opponents who know what they can do.
Yes they're random, but not as random as you might think. A lot of players sneer at the +1 daemon summoning roll in cult armies, but if you use bikes, it is very, very easy to reach summoning range by turn 2. Compared to the deep striking rules, daemon summoning is downright safe. The chances of you taking casualties from 'accidents' are minimal, and, while there is the risk of misfiring and arriving in the wrong place, it's almost never happened to me.
Besides, what's a game without a little unpredictability. If everyone fielded a boring army composed entirely of infiltrating close combat space marines it would be no fun at all.
What you shouldn't do, in my opinion, is depend on daemons to win the game. That's not what they're for. They're shock troops, they're a punch to the enemy's throat which will hopefully mess up their strategy enough that the rest of your army can win.
The whole 'holding icons in vehicles' thing is ambiguous, but as I read it, if they can't be summoned on the turn they roll to summon they count as destroyed, exactly as if you couldn't place them on the board for any other reason.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; July 3rd, 2006 at 05:25.
I guess so. I guess I just have to let go of wanting to control everything, and actually have a bit of fun. I fight a lot of MEQ opponents, so blood letters and daemonettes are starting to appeal to me.
I’ll bite the bullet and give ‘em a go.
Do you have any advise as to what point value game you should start fielding them at etc?
Thanks for your helpful answers!
Daemons are unreliable. But if you wanted reliable stuff, you shouldn't have played chaos in the first place. We have so much unreliable stuff. The point is the the other player won't know either when they will arrive, or when the dread will go mad, or ... This is a stress factor.
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
Karmoon, daemons are troops, same as CSM's. (with more of the "summoned from nothing" thing...) Field them whenever you think you need a few extra power weapons to appear out of thin air, or a handful of assault HB's to support your other squads. You aren't putting too many points in one place with daemons because they're reasonably priced, so I wouldn't worry too much about what point value to use them at. Not like oblits where if one dies in your 500 point army you have to be Chuck Norris to absorb the hit. Whenever they fit into your strategy, and mess with the opponent's, use them. But, as said earlier, be careful making them the main tool used to win. There's few things worse than losing a game and still having 8-10 daemons back in your reserves.
But we'll never survive!
Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has.
Right right. Cool, thanks for all this help guys
I think I'm definitely gonna get a unit of furies now, and see how it goes from there.
Gotta remember, be more like Chuck Norris.. more like Chuck Norris...
Hmmmm, furies. I would field these if they weren't fast attack, but I usually fill my fast attack slots with raptors and bikes. If I use fast attack daemons, I go for daemonettes. IF you use furies, I would definitely field ten. Their low leadership makes them vulnerable to phase out. They are Str 5 I5, which means they'll eat space marines for breakfast.
Also, if you increase the number of daemon packs, you roll enough dice to ensure at least 1 arrives. Statistically, with 2x daemon packs, you will get 1 on turn 2. With 3x, your chances increase, and so on. I would field 3-4 smaller daemon packs, to ensure you get one.
Comfirmed Disciple of Chaos
Rogue Angel: "Meet da Chaos Lord"
more great tips. Thanks a lot.
I was going to try a small amount at first to see how they feel tactically,but when I get into them, I'll certainly take your idea, although I do also see your point about fast attack slots now. Night Lords a gogo I should imagine.
I normally have some fruit and a glass of milk for breakfast, but I'll try some space marines next time.
I believe a good balance is to have about three Icon Bearers in the army and about two or three squads of 15 pt demons in a 2000 point game. Most armies I've played with and most that I watch go with two squads. The Bloodletters are costly but HOLY HELL are they worth it to get them into a fight. I run one squad of 7-10 in my 1500-2000 point armies.Originally Posted by Karmoon
My last game with Necrons they charged straight at two squads of warriors complete with Lord with Warscythe. The Lord was trying to take them out fast enough but after two rounds of combat three still stood. In the meantime they had a feast on Necron bodies, even the ones that got back up from the Orb. Then after all that they managed to hold the warriors in place for my Berzerkers to rush in and wipe the enemy out.
What has been said previously about the "unreliability" balancing out their power is true to a certain extent. You also have to remember that demons get torn up to any amount of shooting. By summoning them later in the game they can actually cross a majority of the field without having to worry about enemy shooting phases. Most of the time they are in combat the turn I drop 'em. They are a lot more reliable than you think, and even if they arrive fashionably late, they freakin' rock the party, man.
Try two things and you will easily change your mind:
Bloodletters against any sort of ground troops. They will leave a massive dent in a flank if they make contact. (MWAHAHAHA Tau and Necrons...)
Demonettes against any elite unit. Treat them like a suicide commando squad, think large targets. They can kill a few models before they die, but they don't care if those are Catechans or Carnifexes.