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Hey all, I've been playing some games with my Avatars of Loss Black Legion list lately, and have not been inpressed with my performance. My army list can be found here. (Black legion - 1500 [needs some help])
I've been thinking, since I already infiltrate over half of my army, why not go Apla Legion and save some points? Because then I couldn't take Berserkers! I was just wondering is anyybody had anything to say on the subject, and for some tips if I do switch [Or not].
Basically, my dilema is such: do I switch to Alpha Legion for cheaper Infiltration and Cultists in place of my Berserkers, or do I stay and possibly try and tweak my current list. I know some people might see this as an army list advertisement thread, but that's not what I'm asking. I want to know from experienced players think I should go Alpha or stay Black.
One of the main reasons I want to switch is because I have been noticing just how much each sqaud in my army costs. Raptrs for almost 300, berserkers for almost 200, Havocs at a little over that. not to mention HQ at around 150-170, and both troop sqauds at almost 200 and 150 respectively.
I also know that most people will say the choice depends on ym style, which it does, so I guess I'll try and explain it. I try to get into combat ASAP. That's about it. I also like having a couple of shooty units stay back and hit up the armour or particularly tough squads before assault.
I thank everone who replies on this thread in advance for helping with my decision,a nd hope this post wasn't to long-winded and boring. Thank you.
Moose, first off, it sounds like your playstyle could definitely fit the alpha legion profile.
Your black legion is strong, but I fear you're not using your shooty elements to maximum benefit.
I personally play a very shooty alpha legion that has a really strong assault element to it. And it works very well for me. Those points costs you mentioned are not far off from what you will see in any chaos army, its the drawback to playing MEQs, each squad NEEDS to count.
If you want some direction on a great shooty alpha army, check out my blog. My 1850 list is up there with some battle reports, thoughts and strategy.
If you are planning on just "getting into combat ASAP" then I suggest
getting 2 to 3 squads of maxed out cultists, assasins and frags, the Cultist champion with:
either a power weapon and daemonic mutation, daemonic strength. These are awesome for taking down other marine style armies.
For TMCs and wraithlords and such, a Cultist champ with daemonic talons, daemonic mutation, spikey bits is the way to go, nothing like a genestealer with 19 lives.
Then, the rest of your troops should be a pair of 8-man CSMs, powerfisted champ, 2x meltaguns to support your cultists. they have numbers but squat for longevity. Furious charge helps too, this makes them about 200+points though.
Many elements from your BL list should probably stay, like the raptors, and obliterators, the havocs, the core troops are really going to be the only thing that changes out for a different style of play.
Moose, I play a black legion list that is almost identical to yours, and I would have to say, that my Alpha legion would really give it a run for its money and win more times than not.
Not to say it is "stornger" it just fits my playstyle better. I still feel your BL has all the elements it needs: it can out assault stuff when you need it to(although berzerkers might not be the best for this since they can't be controlled) and you could out-shoot other stuff when you need them to as well.
Alpha legion really relies on "ambush" style thinking. the infiltrate allows you to pop up right where the oposing forces do NOT want you to be, if you simply stack your guys up as close as possible to the oponent every time, the same way you will most likey end up losing, period.
The problem with all CC marine armies, are: what happens when you meet a CC army that is just plain designed more for sole CC purposes(orks, nids) there are just some things that you won't be able to help, and if you can't switch up strategies in a hurry, you'll be in some real trouble.
So, my answer to your question after this long winded speech, if you think you have the mind set for alpha, then go for it! otherwise, I think you should stick with your BL, its a strong list, it can win. you can always proxy elements to test it out to see how you like it.
if you have any questions, feel free to PM me or just ask.
Hope this helps.
W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Having an entire list that infiltrates is very, very amusing.
The look on your opponent's face when he realises that he's got to deploy his entire army before you put down a single model is priceless.
If you find that you're playing an alpha level game, then that's about 45points down the drain @ 1500 pts level. This isn't a lot come to think about it.
What i like about Alpha legion, is that they rely heavily on normal CSMs, and you get to truly appreciate just how incredible a CSM squad can be.
I must say I like their fluff more than any other Chaos Legion too - I wish i modelled my marines crawling along the ground with camo on and stuff.
Their battle cry "For the Emperor!" is incredible too.
But fluff aside, tactically, black legion can be incredibly flexible too. With an Khornate Lord, you still have access to 2 elite unit slots worth of Nurgle OR Tzeentch troops and daemons. (1 elite slot is of course your obliterators).
With the 4 powers, you have access to more toys which can literally make your army more colourful. Khorne Bezerkers and Death Guard is an awesome combo.
As the Yak states, it all depends upon what turns you on really. How you want to play, and where you want to take your legion.
Remember, there's always Iron warriors and Nightlords waiting for you too.
I've been thinking the same thing, Chaos strong points are HQ, heavy, and infiltration, not that they give us much choice ya know? I wouldn't mind a cheap unit like standard, scouts good transport or skimmer... Anyhow, so yeah thats what we got. So taking Black Legion is flexible but I think its not taking full advantage of the rules. Personally best cult army are Alpha and Iron Warriors, were either take advantage of the best part of Chaos. Cultist would be nice, taking 2 or thre 15 man squads with the lead pimped, infiltrating. Or Iron Warriors with ability to blast away cover and to have another heavy slot. I MEAN REALLY who here use 3 slots of Fast Attack in a Chaos list (beside Katalyst pSsT rhetorical question dude). Not many people do, so... get ride of them for another tank or havoc squad. Thats the way to be. It depends on your style if you find your self relying on heavy alot, then be Iron Warriors. If you love infiltration, either Alpha or Nightlords. I... might become Iron Warrior, as much as it kills me, they would be a way better choice.
With infiltration and monster HQs fast attack are almost obsolete.
Who cares if you can move 342" when, before turn 1 starts, you're already in your opponent's face?
I think black legion's flexibility is balanced out by the expense. EG - alpha legion are extremely cheap to infiltrate but have no potentical to field units with marks.
Black legion can have both, just at a higher price..
Hmm.. now i'm tempted to try a list with 3 fast attack slots
I myself play Black leagion, and although my current list isn't up here at the moment, I might get around to it later in the day. Currentaly I'm part of a imperial vs chaos campain at my gaming club (based around 2000 point armies) and my force has yet to lose a game. I can see where you are comming from as I myself have often had the same thought, the points you save by cutting infiltration costs by 2/3s can really help across the army. However I have never been able to make that cut as I almost always mark my lord/lt, take deamons of some sort (and I like having LOTS of icons on the table, not 1 or 2 in cultists), and occasionaly toss in some marked troops to keep my opponents guessing.
I guess I like switching my tactics, bring 3 dreads to one fight, 3 havocs to the next, all shooty, all close combaty, etc etc etc. I couldn't do alpha legion just because I think my opponents would then know what to expect.
Well, I thank you all for your replies.
I must admit that one of my biggest hesitations to switch was the cost. I didn't want ot have to buy boxes of gaurdsmen for the cultists ontp of the extra CSMs I would need. However, I think I have com up witha a sollution! NOT USE THEM!
After taking a long look at a couple of Alpha Legion lists, particularly theyak's, I can't help but think that I could do without using any Cultits, as I wasn't planning on using an Daemons, and have no real experience with swarm units anyways.
So, without further ado, I'm gonna try and make a respectable Aplah Legion list, and porxy it to see which I like better. Again, thanks for your comments.
yeah, cultists are cool and all, but I personally don't like using them too much myself.
They cost about the same as CSM squads in points to make them useful, and you're going to need to devote your force to supporting them. But, keep in mind that my alpha is a VERY shooty army that can assault if need be, but I rarely use them as a dedicated assault force.
The key is, chose your skirmishes wisely. Shoot the stuff that needs to assault, assault the stuff that needs to shoot and really make em pay for crossing your path.
W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Got it. Just one question? How do you justify using a PLasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter in one squad? I can't see any good combonation scenarios, and, well, one's heavy and the other's rapid fire, so no synergy there. I can see the Plasma and Hevay Bolter being useful against different things, but one gun will always be much less efective then the other.
I was pocking when it was suggested to me to - it's weird.
A single squad kitted out like this won't do much good, but when you have 2 or 3 it just seems to work and is usefull against all armies (not all people play MEQs believe it or not).
Remember, the purpose is to move away from squads dedicated to specific roles. This way, squads can take on more or less anything.
I must admit, I've found it usefull and dependable. They might not shine, but they're usefull at everything.